"Former HMGS members - What will bring U back?" Topic
277 Posts
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ARMY Strong | 08 Jul 2016 9:36 a.m. PST |
+2 Otto on the part of what's important, as far as BOD the past is the past now my faith is in John and hopefully a few others that can pull this out of its decaying status. |
Ceterman | 08 Jul 2016 9:47 a.m. PST |
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Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 9:57 a.m. PST |
All that is required to prove you contentions, Ronin, is success. |
Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 10:40 a.m. PST |
Dear Stepman I don't want anything monetary or compensatory for putting on a game at the conventions I go to. Putting on a game is reward enough and giving people a good time is well. If you want to do ANYTHNG, then simply say thank you. If you must do something go out to Staples and get a few packets of those ornate form and certificates and simply write a form "award" saying the GM's name, his game, time and date, and a mess age of thanks and print them out and hand them out after the game is run. People would accumulate these and put them in a pile in their file as mementos. Even this I'm a bit skitterish of. My personal belief is as I said. I do this out of love and joy for a great hobby and to give people a fun time. Hundreds of gamers do this all the time with not the slightest intention or seeking of reward or remuneration. Most of the dealers do it because they do it as a labor of love. Most Flea-marketers do it only to find a good home for their no longer desired hobby materials. There's something wonderful about that isn't there? "Corruption" is the belief that what is good for you in particular is good for everyone else in the world, and the universe in general." I'm skitterish about even this minimal "doing something" because you never know when the level ground turns into the slippery slope. I don't know if I'd like to say "Winner of 125 certificates of appreciation from the HMGS." As I said, no one has to do ANYTHING in this hobby except stand aside and let the gamers do what they want to do. |
BrigadeGames | 08 Jul 2016 11:31 a.m. PST |
I think the GM incentives and Painter and Terrain competitions (heck they are basic integral parts of our hobby) are great ideas. Both require effort so let us reward those who put forth the effort and inspire us. It goes without saying that any plan has to be well thought out. But this is the type of response I would want to see from the society. |
kayjay | 08 Jul 2016 12:57 p.m. PST |
Otto You know very well that both John and I read TMP. And do you really think I'm corrupt ? Kevin PS send me some info on that magazine – never heard of it. |
Blutarski | 08 Jul 2016 1:01 p.m. PST |
You, Otto, should run for the BoD in the next election. And I say that with complete seriousness. I would vote for you simply because new blood, new ideas and more common sense appear to me to be needed to rejuvenate HMGS. And Waxman and Spiess need allies. B |
Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 1:15 p.m. PST |
Dear Kayjay To answer your first question. Of course I don't think you are corrupt. Institutions can be corrupt and contain corrupt individuals but they can also contain the just and those of integrity as well. Usually these struggle manfully against the corrupt (as I defined it, being the view that what is good for one personally is good for everyone and the universe at large). You KNOW from our private conversations my opinion on this and your own record. I have known many member of the Bod and many are not corrupt. Some were irredeemably so. Can't speak about Spiess, never recall talking to him, but I give him the benefit of the doubt from the good reports I have heard. Every member of the BOD may be not corrupt but the institutional organization be utterly corrupt simply by its way of doing things and the culture that has accrued to it over time. THAT type of corruption is doubly hard to eradicate because it is largely invisible and difficult to see. But the general idea of corruption is not a peculiar view of myself alone. Many others have all alluded to it here and named it in all but name. I am unsure of what magazine you are talking about? I was referring in my post to the HMGS electronic newsletter which is put out by HMGS itself I believe. Which I am told, one of my articles appears in on terrain. By the way, you guys really should use Bob and Cleo more. They are a great resource, excellent gamers, and I don't think they could EVER have a corrupt bone in their body. They are just too good natured. Here we are on a hot July day and they are baking cookies for Historicon. |
Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 1:46 p.m. PST |
Dear Blutarski No. I shall not. I ran once, I believe, in 1998 and I believe 864 people voted and I came in third at 400 something which was not enough to land me in the two slots open. Nevertheless thank you for your kind words. By the way. I think you mean Dave Waxtell not Waxman. My reasons for not wanting to run are simple. I am arrogant, patronizing, condescending, sarcastic and a snob. I am difficult to work with and do not have the temperament required for an organization like the BOD. I expect people make commitments and live up to them, and I am intolerant of those who do not. I unfortunately inherited my mothers tongue, of which it was said could melt razor blades. These are my good qualities. My opinions and short temper with regard to what I view as the shortcomings of those in power do not suit me to suffering sloth, cynicism, and feelings. Forty-five years in industry have only sharpened that as I saw five companies run to ground by pure stupidity and "corruption" as I define i. When I ran Clubcon for Walt O'Hara at Cold Wars in 2004 I did it all myself. Not because I was an ego-maniac, but because I did not want to alienate anyone. I believe I can say that Walt would say of that and me, "If you want something done, get Otto-- but stand clear." What is needed for "The BOD" is not me. What is needed are pleasant, outgoing, honest, and friendly individuals who will attempt to heal the sins and hard feelings of the past and the factions and fractures of the last 10 years. This has to be done with good humor, gentleness and kindness. It must make friends where enemies have been made, and it must be done by gentle persuasion and reconcile opposing factions. We did not get to this sorry state in an evening, and it will take just as long a time for these old grudges and factions to heal. People are still fighting the XXXX / YYYY wars (put in whoevers name you wish into either side). I also believe that the solution to this does not lie in the Board doing anything of itself. These things can only be assuaged by time and by the constant application of kindness to our fellow gamers. The power to do this is there, the will to do it is there, the ability to do it is there, and it IS being done day in and day out, silently, slowly.
One person mentioned he doesn't like the Weekend. That's fine, but we have attending people who are bitter enemies in HMGS but pleasant gamers at the Weekend, and that's a good thing. They are learning the other guys are people too. I hope that of all this "Sturm und Drang" over the HMGS here, resurrected for about the tenth time, merely can point out that it is the result NOT of some grand forces of evil, but bad habits and slights. For me I don't care, I know I'm an S.O.B and a prima donna. But I believe in the simple human qualities of friendship far more than leadership or new ideas. That is what the hobby needs. Simple reconciliation and a resuscitation of spirit and enthusiasm.
New ideas aren't hard. They've been around a long time. Want creativity? Simple- think crazy thoughts and try them out. Might not work, if they don't simply say "Well we won't try THAT again!" But then again, if you keep beating on it, it might work. Always remember- this isn't real politics. Nothing is validated here, nothing is proved, the fates of nations aren't in the balance and it's all a silly hobby about grown men playing with toy soldiers and getting very heated about it too-- as Wells observed. |
jefritrout | 08 Jul 2016 1:55 p.m. PST |
There have been a couple of inaccuracies in the above posts (big shock), like Historicon always being in central PA. It started around the DC Beltway in Alexandria VA, then into Maryland in New Carrollton and Lanham. Cold Wars started off in Towson, MD outside of Baltimore. We moved to the Penn-Harris in the late 80s. I was on the recon team as a college student who went to school about 5 minutes from that location. With the whole idea of moving it away from DC was first broached we found that most of the members were from the immediate DC area and the NC crowd did not want to travel the extra distance to the new location. There were many complaints and most were doom and gloom. However the decision was made, it was moved and it had great success in PA. The "Southerners" came North. If you look at HMGS membership in the mid to late 80's it was mostly based around DC because that's where the conventions were. If you look at the period from 2000-2010 the greatest representation was from PA. I sense a pattern there. Unlike Otto, I do take my free badge for running games, and most of the time I do not know members of the board personally. Now onto the conventions – I know that we were trying to entice vendors to come over here from England. I understand why, but shouldn't we take care of some of our homegrown vendors. I think that we should cut the fees that the vendors pay by at least at 1/3. We should make it worthwhile for folks like Lon to come. We come for 4 reasons, play games, see friends, shop from vendors, and visit the flea market. If the vendors start to bail then the attendance will go down even more drastically. Free badges for those who just want to shop is a great idea. Also reduce the cost of a day pass. We want people to come in the door and see what is going on. A cheap day pass should help with that. If you want to subsidize games, how about subsidizing Sunday games. Give folks a reason to stay into Sunday. I know I don't. I hit the road sometimes at 2AM, but it is less than a hotel room and the two times I stayed into Sunday there is no real reason to other than a last minute bargain in the flea market or grab something from the vendors with my last couple of dimes. There are often only 2 games going on. There are many other good ideas above. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend the membership meeting as I am running games at that time. I much preferred the Saturday morning meetings, but it seems that I was one of the few. |
Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 1:55 p.m. PST |
The solution is simple. We must learn to Love each other. |
TSD101 | 08 Jul 2016 1:58 p.m. PST |
My membership lapsed last month, so am I qualified to post now? I've only been war gaming seriously for a decade now, and attending HMGS cons for 6 or 7 years. The point that always jumps out to me is the thinly veiled animosity and hostility held by a considerable portion of the membership for bad or questionable decisions past. So much so that I've wondered if it wasn't best for HMGS to simply fold and restart with a new mission statement and set of people. I've attended Historicon every year in Fredericksburg. Do I like the location? No. I don't like the snarl along I-95 for hours and hours the entire way down. I don't like the 95 degree with 90% humidity days in Virginia while trying to load/unload setups for my group. I don't like how half my group no longer attends because of distance. I don't like the cavernous feel of the main room, the inability to hear people 10 feet away, and the hardness of the concrete floor, or how the smaller rooms and the entire side where the hobby university was is like an oven. HMGS shouldn't have to be renting tents and portable AC for it (and it was a failure anyways). I can totally understand the frustration of moving the con away from the location its been held at for decades. I can understand frustration at the specific needs of the convention making the available venues limited to us. Despite that, I still go. I still play games. I still spend money in the dealer hall and flea market. Do I wish for it to be in Lancaster or King of Prussia? Sure would be a hell of a lot closer. If the convention was any further South I'd probably stop going. Fredericksburg for FI or CW would be dropped from my list because its just too far for a 2 day convention. Right now, the only reason I am an on/off member was to save a few bucks I could spend on more minis, and to make it easier to be a GM. I really don't see any benefit anywhere else. We talk about new ideas and common sense. My opinion is unpopular it seems, but I think HMGS's mission statement and focus might need to change. HMGS's concerns should be 1. Historical gaming 2. Historical gaming 3. A good shopping experience for both dealers and customers 4. Attracting new blood 5. Historical gaming 6. Hobby U 7. History lectures, speakers, guests, etc. 8. Historical gaming HMGS's focus should be GAMES. Yes, I would like the majority (not ALL) of the con to be historicals. There will never be a consensus as to what a Historical game is, and it could easily be argued any hypothetical battle or any tournament is not a historical game. I don't mind space games, or zombie games, or people coming and putting on an amazing looking Frostgrave game like Xintao did at Cold Wars. Sometimes you need a break for something a little different, and they may attract others. If people get annoyed by this, then maybe the compromise would be to place those games in a section of the room like they do for the FoW and DBA tournaments. I'd like to see HMGS return to being HMGS East, primarily concerned with serving its own area instead and of trying and failing to "take it to the next level" and make itself a national thing. For one, it seems like a slap in the face to the other regional branches putting on their own cons, and people could be helping to grow those conventions. With the rise of the internet, information has become easier to acquire than at any other point in human history. As such, the need for HMGS to spend considerable time and effort on the pure history aspect is not as imperative as it was 30 years ago. Most of us here read or watch documentaries. In my experience we game because we like history, not the other way around. No one here is going to stop enjoying learning if HMGS moves away from that. Whether or not it has to remain a focus to do with HMGS being considered a non profit, I do not know. I'd like for more information to be on the main website and not in some invite Yahoo group, and have no idea why that is even necessary in the first place. It strikes me as unnecessarily secretive. John Spiess has done a good job communicating on TMP and I applaud him for reaching out to us and informing us of developments, but what about the rest of the BOD? I want leadership that communicates with us. I know there are meetings during the convention, but 7 PM is prime time gaming and I hate to lose a night to that. At CW I couldn't attend because I was GMing. And yes, someone else mentioned it, but I'd really, really like HMGS to purchase better registration software and systems if possible. Even if it requires a few thousand dollar expenditure. |
cleo liebl | 08 Jul 2016 6:36 p.m. PST |
Jeff and TSD and Otto, and a few others….keep it up. New ideas. HMGS is a Society. The conventions are our venue, the BOD is the organization. Somehow, we have to meld the three… |
kayjay | 08 Jul 2016 7:33 p.m. PST |
Otto the American War Game Magazine, or did I misread your post …and I cant find your email now. Kevin |
Ottoathome | 08 Jul 2016 10:29 p.m. PST |
Dear Kevin Ah.. that's probably my fault for not explaining it more. I believe you are referring to my third proposal for ideas for things the HMGS could do to pump up interest and regain the spirit of excitement. I said 3. You have two excellent and well loved editors to your newsletter. Why don't you do the hobby in America and start subsidizing an American War Game Magazine, the newsletter of the HMGS, and do the same. Subsidize it for a few years till it gets on its feet and like Historical Gamer, The Courier, and others, do REAL content on gaming. You have plenty of money. Doing it the E-route means only that no one will contribute to it and it won't be read. I was referring to HMGS own newsletter which is put out electronically by Bob and Cleo right now, but which goes only to members of HMGS on your own web site. That is what I meant-- subsidizing it, building it up, doing a print version and publicizing the hobby. At least it could be sent out to people at large and anyone who had any interest in seeing it could do so. I worded it clumsily, but that's what I meant. You already HAVE the magazine (in e form) and resource to advertise and pump up excitement, don't hide it under a bushel barrel. I probably worded it poorly. Otto |
Bowman | 09 Jul 2016 5:12 a.m. PST |
Sundance said: Bowman, how much does HMGS pay dealers to attend cons? Oh, they don't? Then it doesn't cost HMGS a dime. They pass on the cost of the dealer hall to the dealers, those prices have risen dramatically over the past few years, and all the while attendance has declined because of the concerns people have raised here, thus reducing income for the vendors. I agree completely. I am well aware that the cost of renting vendor hall space is passed on to the vendors. And I am well aware that cost has gone up at the various venues, that was one of the reasons in leaving the Eisenhower. My point is that it costs money to have the vendors all in one spot and that letting the "I don't care about the convention, I just want to shop" crowd in for free or at a reduced rate is a dumb idea. Again, if they don't care about the convention at all, then why come? Clearly it's easier for both themselves and the vendors just to stay home and order through the Internet. |
Bowman | 09 Jul 2016 5:23 a.m. PST |
If you look at HMGS membership in the mid to late 80's it was mostly based around DC because that's where the conventions were. If you look at the period from 2000-2010 the greatest representation was from PA. I sense a pattern there. Jeff, I'm not sure that trend is seen at Fredericksburg. That's part of the problem. |
kayjay | 09 Jul 2016 6:14 a.m. PST |
Otto I have no objection to HMGS producing and selling an American War-games Magazine – it certainly would fall under our purpose statement. I know next to nothing about the publishing industry. Put a proposal together with Bob and Cleo with expected costs and a pricing structure unless you intend it to be a freebee or member only. I'll try to sell it to the BOD if its feasible. We should take this off line to email. |
TRUgamer | 09 Jul 2016 7:03 a.m. PST |
Well this topic went far beyond the scope I had originally intended, however I do believe it touched on a number of good fresh ideas… Some better than others. Focusing on areas of improvement that would appeal to both former members as well as potential new members would be a great place to start. A little soul searching and self reflection can only be good for the organization. TRU |
Blutarski | 09 Jul 2016 7:20 a.m. PST |
Bowman wrote – "Jeff, I'm not sure that trend is seen at Fredericksburg. That's part of the problem." - – - The following may be anecdotal, but is nevertheless thought provoking (to me at least). I just re-located down to Greenville SC and have been connecting with what appears to be a fairly numerous and active miniature war-gaming community here. I will be making the six hour drive to Fredericksburg next week. That is about the same drive time as from Boston to Lancaster, which was a ho-hum no-brainer for us. I cannot find anyone else here in Greenville who plans to attend. In fact, the local gamers I have chatted with seem to be generally disinterested in attending conventions. Maybe my experience is "an outlier". But, on the other hand, perhaps it is just another indicator as to why Historicon in Fredericksburg has failed to meet attendance expectations. FWIW. B |
Double G | 09 Jul 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
Bowman, I usually agree with 99% of what you write, but this comment; "letting the I don't care about the convention, I just want to shop crowd in for free or at a reduced rate is a dumb idea"……is a real head scratcher to me. I don't recall anyone saying those who shop don't care about the convention. Speaking for myself, I started attending all three HMGS conventions back in the late 1990's. At the time, I was a 20mm WWII collector; key word there is collector, not gamer. I was told by friends who did game that I needed to get to these conventions as they are in my wheelhouse and boy were they right. I attended all three conventions for about three years prior to getting into the business and I'd say I spent about 15,000.00 over those three years in the dealer hall and the flea market. I also enjoyed roaming through the gaming area checking out the games, specifically the 20mm WWII ones, but to be honest, I could care less about the games, I don't game, I collect. As much as you love to game, I love to collect just as much; buy, paint, display and enjoy, you get your enjoyment one way, I get mine another, but the point is we BOTH enjoy the hobby. I enjoy the convention just as much as you do. I don't see how someone who comes to shop is not interested in the convention; I know you go primarily to game, you've stated that numerous times. Good for you. As a vendor who speaks to a number of customers at my booth, you'd be shocked how many of them come strictly to shop, not to game. Saturday is the busiest day at these conventions due to all the day trippers; how many of them are there just to shop? Again, I think you'd be surprised at the answer. I used to attend a toy soldier show in Annandale three times a year and due to a falling out with the promoter, I am no longer attending, so I am promoting Fredericksburg as my main trip to VA and I'd say roughly about 30 of my toy soldier customers are coming to see me there and they are coming for one reason and one reason only; to shop. I think letting people in who are there just to shop at a reduced rate or free is a very good idea; for some reason, you don't. I'm curious as to why? If you go primarily to game, what do you care if shoppers get in at a lesser rate or free? As far as the dealers and the convention; if Lon Weis, one of the flagship dealers at these conventions, has gotten to the point where the flagship event is on thin ice, that is eye opening to me and it should be to the rest of you. There are a number of factors for this; one of which is IMO over the past five or six years, gamers shop differently than they did in the past. As Joe Kelly and others have said, a number of years ago, ie, pre internet when there were just paper catalogs, the conventions were very important as it was the main way to see items in person. Now we have the internet, websites, Ebay, Amazon, etc, etc, places to go and shop and see everything you want to see without leaving your house. I've seen a huge shift in sales for me at all the shows I attend, toy soldier as well as wargaming. Show sales are slowly circling the drain, while my website, Ebay and other sources are going through the roof. Over the past two days, I've done more in sales than I probably will do the entire four days I'm at the show. Also, my sales while I am away at the show will no doubt be more as well. I have to pack the van on Monday, leave on Tuesday and dedicate that day as nothing more than a travel day due to the distance, then set up on Wednesday, do the show Thursday through Sunday, then come home, unload the van and begin the catching up process from being away for close to a week. It's getting to the point where being away at a show is actually counter productive to my business; that said, I love going to the wargaming conventions, seeing my customers, the other dealers, relaxing at night in the gaming area and socializing. However, if sales continue to drop, then I may have no choice and have to pack in the shows. As in all of them; or, do as Lon suggests, go as an attendee and shop, visit that swell flea market that everyone raves about and visit with friends at night. Then I can go down the day the show starts and leave the day before it ends. Time will tell. |
TSD101 | 09 Jul 2016 8:46 a.m. PST |
Now we have the internet, websites, Ebay, Amazon, etc, etc, places to go and shop and see everything you want to see without leaving your house. There's plenty of people like me who still enjoy seeing the product in person. Especially if you're dropping a bunch of money. Also, I routinely find products I didn't even know existed in the dealer hall, so it might work as a form of advertising as well. As for shoppers getting in cheaper, I have agreed with this for awhile to throw dealers a bone. Most of them only come in and browse a few hours and leave so a $5 USD-10 pass for shopping only might benefit their bottom line and help make the convention costs more bearable. |
jefritrout | 09 Jul 2016 8:52 a.m. PST |
Bowman, I agree that the growth didn't seem to happen in Fredericksburg. When we moved to PA in the first place, all the vocal DC gamers went to PA even though they grumbled about it. However we did lots of outreach to local clubs in PA and advertised quite a bit about the move to perople in the PA area. I don't know about the outreach to the local clubs in VA,NC and TN to get more attendance. I still think that lower fees for vendors would help. Free badges or greatly reduced for shoppers is great. Also lengthen the time of preregistration to closer to the convention if at all possible. |
Winston Smith | 09 Jul 2016 10:03 a.m. PST |
It's kind of ridiculous to have to stand in line for an hour and a half Saturday morning to spend $40 USD for the right to go shopping. Think about that for a minute. Just have a guy with day badges and a cigar box for the cash. Why do people have to be entered into a database for EVERYTHING we do in life? Give me a pass, dammit. Here's my money. |
Ceterman | 09 Jul 2016 10:30 a.m. PST |
"Why do people have to be entered into a database for EVERYTHING we do in life? Give me a pass, dammit. Here's my money." I agree Winston, but then, if you don't record them won't people say "Attendance is down!"? Or something like that? You know they would… |
Cardinal Ximenez | 09 Jul 2016 10:42 a.m. PST |
TRU asked what will bring people back. Not this from an earlier post: "I resent the comments that convention staff are rude and arrogant. I have been on convention staff. I have good friends who have been convention staff. We are nice to everyone. We are VOLUNTEERS, pal, and maybe you could cut us a little break. Or maybe even say "Thank You" after we take care of your requests and demands. I urge YOU to volunteer for just one convention, you're a member, aren't you? After you sit on the other side of the table then you will see just what rude and arrogant really looks like. And as far as conditions at the Host, I have personally picked up piles of trash off the floor that was less than ten feet from a trash can. There is no excuse for that. Maybe you are used to having servants at home, but you are out in public, act like you were not raised in a cave." |
Cardinal Ximenez | 09 Jul 2016 10:47 a.m. PST |
Cold Wars as a vendor, great. Fall In as a vendor, great. Historicon FB, not so much. I really like Fredericksburg as an attendee. As a vendor, not so much. DM |
TheKing30 | 09 Jul 2016 10:56 a.m. PST |
OK Don I urge YOU to volunteer for just one convention, you're a member, aren't you? After you sit on the other side of the table then you will see just what rude and arrogant really looks like. I tried this. Twice. At Fall In. First time I was told they didn't need me (oh well). Second time I was told I wouldn't be able to understand program for the registration – told me it was too complicated for me (I never told them I'm a DBA). Maybe I just look dumb? They had me sit in the corner waiting for people with pre register badges. This was at 1:00pm Saturday afternoon. Moral of the story? It goes both ways my friend. Cold Wars as a vendor great. Fall In as a vendor great. Historicon FB, not so much.I really like Fredericksburg as an attendee. As a vendor, not so much. You're the third vendor I've heard this from. At what point will someone finally say it's simply not worth it? |
Cardinal Ximenez | 09 Jul 2016 10:59 a.m. PST |
King30, I was quoting someone else's earlier response. That is in no way my position on the current discussion. DM |
Brian98 | 09 Jul 2016 11:00 a.m. PST |
Actually, to respond to some of the recent suggestions for a cash only line for day badges, I'm pretty sure that will be in effect at Historicon. The staff is trying a few new things to make the on site registration go quicker. I think this is the first time they are implementing the cash only day badge line, so hopefully it will help out. Fingers crossed. Respectfully, John Spiess Treasurer, HMGS, Inc. |
nazrat | 09 Jul 2016 11:02 a.m. PST |
Just my opinion, but the problems (if any) with the people working the convention desks generally starts with the fact that many gamers are irascible guys with little if any social skills. I have always been pleasant to the staff at cons. A smile and some chit-chat and a little joking around goes a LONG way to making the experience a pleasant one for everybody involved, so I have never ever had an issue with them. Now, I've consistently seen many others in line around me start their dealings with the volunteers well into a-hole range and things seem to go downhill from there. Yet somehow it's always the fault of the volunteer, NOT of the attendee. Perhaps we should all check the frustrated, pissed off attitude at the door and give the hard working volunteers a little good natured support? |
Cardinal Ximenez | 09 Jul 2016 11:10 a.m. PST |
>>>You're the third vendor I've heard this from. At what point will someone finally say it's simply not worth it? They'll decide on an individual basis. You might be surprised by how many are currently asking themselves that very question. DM |
Ottoathome | 09 Jul 2016 12:29 p.m. PST |
Dear Kayjay Pleased to talk about it off line. We have handled many things that way already. The HMGS newsletter USED to be printed and sent to the membership, then it was discontinued and allowed to fall into abeyance and now it is done electronically. Back when it was published it was in a simple 8 1/2 by 11 copying with a colored cover, black and white and while no where near as good as "The Courier" it was at least something and highly anticipated. Bob and Cleo Lieble still do this and publish this electronically but it doesn't seem available to anyone. I am sure that THEY would be far better placed to make a proposal on what to do in this case than I. Bob is after all a published author with two books to his credit (one of them by the way hilarious called "Murdering Marsha" They have been doing the job for you guys for years and they would know all there is to know about it. I publish a fanzine-style newsletter "Saxe N'Violets" which is a small newsletter of the Society of Daisy. That would not in any way be suitable for HMGS. Bob and Cleo have been the newsletter editors since I believe 2004 at least. With almost 20 years in on it they have the most expertise. If HMGS did this publishing thing in the days of our poverty I am sure it could be resurrected at small cost. Otto |
cleo liebl | 09 Jul 2016 1:07 p.m. PST |
BridgeGames wrote: "I think the GM incentives and Painter and Terrain competitions (heck they are basic integral parts of our hobby) are great ideas. Both require effort so let us reward those who put forth the effort and inspire us." HMGS does this. HOWEVER, the winners are never mentioned, no results, no pictures, nothing has been published for nearly a year. What good does it do if no one knows… And further more… |
TheKing30 | 09 Jul 2016 1:10 p.m. PST |
King30,I was quoting someone else's earlier response. That is in no way my position on the current discussion. DM In that case, my apologies. |
cleo liebl | 09 Jul 2016 1:27 p.m. PST |
We attended a gathering of Lancaster War Gamers last Thursday. A weekly gathering of up to 20 gamers (miniatures and board) which meets weekly for over 6 years. THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD OF HMGS. No flyers, no newspaper stories, nothing to let these small pockets of gamers know that HMGS exists. And they were astounded when we told them about the dealers hall. Watch the HAWKS, they hold demos at schools, colleges, have their minicons plastered over every little newspaper in the area, and they keep growing. What are we doing? Any flyers in local stores? Newspaper and/or TV notified? Can't even find our own newsletter, current or past copies. A newsletter which, by our By-laws is supposed to inform the members of BOD meetings, membership lists, local clubs and mini cons. We're a historical and educational society. The only charity we (as newsletter editors) were informed of during this past year is a scholarship to a couple of 8th graders in Maryland, one was for a paper about the Korean Comfort Women used by Japanese solders during WWII. This is not what our society is about, and this is why people are shaking their heads and walking away. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 09 Jul 2016 1:27 p.m. PST |
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cleo liebl | 09 Jul 2016 1:57 p.m. PST |
Historicon's GEATEST ATTRACTION! Cleo & I have always supported HMGS, because we're wargamers. Sight unseen, we even put on a giant game at the first Historicon held in Fredericksburg, which involved raising eight armies, two fleets, and a fortress, as well as learning how to make terrain. Carrying everything for three tables, each six foot by twelve foot was an accomplishment. We were awarded the "Grant Phoo Bah" award. The experience of trying to put on a game in Fredericksburg convinced us to NEVER put one on again, even though we still attend. We have a new all time winner we are tempted to put on which will set all records for attendance and gratitude. What about bringing in and installing a nice clean men's room, one with numerous stalls with toilet paper, and urinals for the Gang Who Could Shoot Straight. All cleaned out regularly, with the addition of a facility of a cold water dispenser and cups to carry away more than a mouthful. Now, who wouldn't attend such an event? Bob Liebl |
Tumbleweed | 09 Jul 2016 3:28 p.m. PST |
The Viking Forge attended the first Historicon and every single one after that until it was moved to King of Prussia. Since then our our participation has been off and on. I think we have attended every single Cold Wars since the first one but am not sure. We have attended most of the Fall In conventions as well. The first HMGS convention was called a "mini-con" and it was held in Alexandria, Virginia in 1982. We were there as well. It's too bad Pat Conray is no longer with us because he could tell you all about it, and I am sure he would. lol There has been a lot of hand-wringing about what can be done to bring the dealers back. We could talk about the demographics of the post-war baby boom generation, the so-called "graying of the hobby," the rising costs of venues and a lot of other factors that may have contributed to shrinkage, but there would be no point in that. Rather, I would prefer that we look to the future and think about ways to make our current shows better. That is why I totally agree with Double G. Read his posts carefully and take his advice. He knows what he is talking about. |
Blutarski | 09 Jul 2016 4:41 p.m. PST |
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jefritrout | 09 Jul 2016 5:03 p.m. PST |
My last post apparently disappeared. Summed up as 1 – Reduce dealer fees. They are one of the main reasons that people come. Whatever we can do to encourage dealers is a good thing. We need to make it worth their while to come. 2 – Cheap and easy walk in badges (or even free) for people who just want to shop. 3. – Extend the preregistration period of the convention if at all possible. I think that it gets cut off too soon. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 10 Jul 2016 7:56 a.m. PST |
A few of us discussed this last night during the course of our game. The condescending attitude of some HMGS staff toward its members is real and unfortunately persistent. One person related a story about having so much trouble navigating the site a second time after already preregistering to run a PEL listed event he missed the deadline to sign up for a flea market table. He apologized for missing the deadline and also the inconvenience to the HMGS staff realizing the workload required to make the event happen. The response from the person that contacted him was "Well, I don't know how you could have missed it." Absolutely unacceptable and a contributing factor as to why people refrain from renewing their memberships. DM |
edmuel2000 | 10 Jul 2016 8:28 a.m. PST |
Well, for one, drop the "education" BS. That is a trojan horse that winds up justifying just about anything. I don't need to be educated, which leads to the next… …number two, forget about the "grow the hobby" BS. Shift priority to those WHO DO EXIST rather than some imagined multitude that doesn't. Nobody stumbles into an HMGS convention by accident. They come because they're already in the hobby or are brought there by others who have brought them in. Number three: the "H" in HMGS should mean something (and not just in terms of "education"). Number four: stop acting like a for-profit. While sitting on a warchest of tens of thousands of dollars, HMGS should be absorbing costs to make conventions more viable for vendors rather than just passing costs along. Spend some money to hire a professional event planner (and fix registration, etc). Add what Jefritrout says above. |
Bowman | 10 Jul 2016 8:29 a.m. PST |
Hi George, I don't recall anyone saying those who shop don't care about the convention. Not on this thread. But they will chime in after Historicon, if previous conventions are anything to go by. And I didn't exactly say that. I was alluding to those who specifically have said as much on TMP themselves. I made the exact same comments on the past threads as I have made above. I don't see how someone who comes to shop is not interested in the convention; I know you go primarily to game, you've stated that numerous times.Good for you. Again, I never said either of those things. I buy about 90% of ALL my wargaming purchases at the 3 HMGS conventions. The remaining 10% is on the internet from Canadian and British companies. I drive about 13-14 hours each way from Southern Ontario to get to Historicon. I sneak in the back way and only spend 10 minutes on I-95 (Whew!). I do not drive that long to just shop, so gaming and meeting up with friends is my main priority. But, I always shop. Shipping costs and getting gouged by Canada Customs forces me to do that. Plus, I really like dealing face to face with the dealers. Last time this topic came up,a few TMP members wrote that they were not interested in the convention and didn't know why they had to pay anything for the "privilege" (their word) to simply shop. I told them then what I wrote above. I have great sympathy for all the vendors. Rather than dealing with the shoppers, how about the HMGS BOD take their war chest and allow a moratorium on vendor's fees for Historicon 2017? And reduce the fees for the other cons. I think funding a good chunk of the Con on the backs of dealers is a disgrace considering the amount of $$ in the bank. As far as the dealers and the convention; if Lon Weis, one of the flagship dealers at these conventions, has gotten to the point where the flagship event is on thin ice, that is eye opening to me and it should be to the rest of you. However, if sales continue to drop, then I may have no choice and have to pack in the shows. Sadly, it isn't that surprising and the threat of such long time vendors as yourself and Lon not coming to the shows should give the BOD all the evidence it needs to address the situation. BTW, I am sorry to hear that. If you go primarily to game, what do you care if shoppers get in at a lesser rate or free? Personally, I don't care. It's like you cutting your jugular and I give you a painkiller. You may feel better in the short term, but there is a more appropriate solution to your predicament. However, if the BOD wants to try out "shopping only" tags then go ahead. If it was such a good idea then we'd be seeing it in more historical miniature gaming conventions. I'm not aware of any, but would be interested in being corrected. Please don't include Adepticon, Origins and GenCon. They operate under a totally different fee structure. |
Bowman | 10 Jul 2016 8:51 a.m. PST |
So what if I get me a free "shopping only" badge for Historicon 2017? I use that to get me into the vendor hall and buy everything I want in that one day. Then I throw away my badge and game with my friends for the rest of the weekend for free. That would work out great for me, but who pays for the FCC? How would that help the vendors in the long run? And now do we have to police every gaming room for "Gaming" badges? |
McLaddie | 10 Jul 2016 9:36 a.m. PST |
I've been a member of several hobby organizations, starting with RC Airplane's AMA and Spartan International when I was a teenager. I dropped my HMGS membership in the mid-nineties not only because I couldn't make it to cons with my business, but because of the political infighting I was asked to fund while HMGS lost its focus. The primary purpose of any hobby organization is to make it easy and fun to enter the hobby, participate in the hobby, to do business in the hobby. There will always be politics and egos, but it can't be allowed to derail the fundamental purpose of the organization, which it obviously has if the BOD has become 'irrelevant' to the hobby…or the reason folks have left. Conventions are certainly one basic way of supporting the hobby--making it fun, but Otto has suggested several others. There are any number of organizations that do a good job of promoting their hobbies. It isn't some mystery. Not that it is always easy, but in many respects, my response to the question about "What will bring former members back?" is 'Duh.' |
Double G | 10 Jul 2016 10:19 a.m. PST |
Bowman, Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it. As far as myself; I'd hate to have to bail out of the conventions as the attendees have been very, very good to me. I've had regular customers come to the conventions as new attendees and buy from me (as stated earlier, I've got a number of them coming to Historicon this year), I've also had the pleasure of selling toy soldiers to non toy soldier collectors who then became collectors and regular customers. I always get a charge out of that for some reason; introducing someone to a new hobby. HMGS has been very, very good to me as well, providing me with three opportunities to sell my merchandise and grow my business. I'd hate to bail on them, but business is business and I am hoping it never, ever comes to that. As I stated above, people are shopping differently now than they used to, the shows are becoming less and less important to them, at least the toy soldier shows. The wargaming shows are a different animal; you have shopping as well as gaming, so for many, there are two reasons to come. I see them being viable for hopefully a long time to come. When Historicon moved to Valley Forge for two years, my sales spiked and I was thrilled; then it moved to Fredericksburg and it dipped the first year, went back to Valley Forge levels the second year, then dropped quite a bit last year. That concerns me; hopefully the toy soldier customers who are coming this year will cause the numbers to spike again, we'll see. To all of you who've supported me at the HMGS conventions; thanks very much, I greatly appreciate it, I sincerely hope I never have to make a difficult decision to no longer attend them as a vendor, I hope to continue to support the shows for a long time………….. |
Ottoathome | 10 Jul 2016 10:31 a.m. PST |
McLaddie and I agree on something. Surely this is a portentious moment and a sign from heaven that the earth is about to leave it's orbit and crash into the sun. When he says "The primary purpose of any hobby organization is to make it easy and fun to enter the hobby, participate in the hobby, to do business in the hobby. There will always be politics and egos, but it can't be allowed to derail the fundamental purpose of the organization, which it obviously has if the BOD has become 'irrelevant' to the hobby…or the reason folks have left." He is speaking the truth. As I said before the only sin chargeable to the Bod is allowing the excitement and thrill of the convention to die. The BOD should be the cheerleaders for the hobby and for the conventions. Free rooms, the possible graft and the corruption will all be forgotten if they do that. The fact is, as Bob and Cleo have noted, there is no real attempt to trumpet ourselves. At "The Weekend," there are always other guests not connected with the convention at the hotel. We put up a big display in the lobby as to what is going on, with brochures and flyers. Every year we get two or three couples or families who come down to see more. I always give them the guided tour of the game, explaining the hobby, and what's going on. At the end of it, they can stay and play if they want but we also push into their hands our "All About War Games" booklet, a sixteen page nicely arted up booklet which is written completely for people who haven't seen or heard about the hobby till ten minutes ago. So far we've gotten a few returns from people, but that's not our intent. Lancaster is a vacation area, FOR KIDS! What better place to draw new members than from KIDS. We don't care if they don't come back to the convention, we HOPE they seek out other gamers in their area. In the book on wargames, when we talk about contacting other people the FIRST name on the list has always been the HMGS. Let me tell you… there is nothing like hearing after the "guided tour" one of the touristas saying as his eyes pop out… "Oh this is just like D&D " When I hear that I know I've made an impression. The answer is always "Well … sort of…actually ..it is, it's completely like D&D |
Charlie 12 | 10 Jul 2016 2:00 p.m. PST |
Why don't you do the hobby in America and start subsidizing an American War Game Magazine, the newsletter of the HMGS, and do the same. Subsidize it for a few years till it gets on its feet and like Historical Gamer, The Courier, and others, do REAL content on gaming. You have plenty of money. Doing it the E-route means only that no one will contribute to it and it won't be read. SO…. You're proposing a new PAPER HARD COPY magazine in the same vein as The Courier, MWAN, Historical Gamer, etc? Well, lets see about this… The Courier (DEAD), MWAN (DEAD) Historical Gamer (DEAD), Historical Miniature Gamer (DEAD), The Wargamer (DEAD). Hmmmm…. I'm sensing a pattern here…. I'll just refer you to the white bar above this message, the one the has the year as 2016…. The notion of launching a hard copy magazine in this day and age is the absolute worse and most idiotic idea to grace this forum (and that's saying something). It's 2016, people, not 1986 or 1976 or 1966…. If such a publication was to be launched it should only be as an e-zine. Unless, of course, you intend to LOSE MONEY. And join those other long gone mags… Of course, never let facts get in the way of entrenched bias and the manic desire by many on this thread to turn back the clock to the 1980s (or '70s or '60s)…. |
Ottoathome | 10 Jul 2016 2:51 p.m. PST |
Hey Charlie 12!!! Why don't you go tell the three English Magazine's they're dead as dinosaurs. They seem to be doing fine to me. Just because you're too cheap to support an American zine doesn't mean others aren't That's OK though, you're the guy who said it can't be done. "It Can't Be Done." The man who misses all the fun Is the man who says "It can't be done." In solemn pride he stands aloof and greets each venture with reproof. Had he the power he'd efface The history of the human race; We'd have to radio or motor cars No streets lit by electric stars, No telegraph or Telephone We'd linger in the age of stone. The world would sleep if things were run by Men who said "It can't be done." |
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