"28mm Dog Peoples/Chichimecs/Others?" Topic

I am interested in sourcing 28mm Dog Peoples/Chichimecs/other Naive Americans from northwest Mexico or Southwest United States as semi-historical opponents to pre-Colombian Aztecs. I will be most likely using Eureka Aztecs, so reasonable compatibility with that line is a definite plus.

Thank you for any and all help!

I apologise for the many crossposts, but I have no idea what board this topic should actually be posted to.

Copplestone castings Lost Worlds Amazon Indians are about the closest match for unclothed Native Americans. They are virtually naked with hand weapons and bows. They are probably chunkier than Eureka but should work size wise.

Those Eureka Aztecs are such odd sculpts. I just couldnt bring myself to actually paint them. I've seen them painted, and they look like they turn out well, but sitting there on my painting table.. Not so much!

I sold of my Eureka Aztecs. Too thin. Most of mine are Foundry.

Sorry, my sources for those are only 15/18mm but good luck. I used in the past Amazonian (very selective figures) to fight my conquistadors and Soldados as unconverted natives. Sounds like some good advice in previous posts.

Punkrabbit, I can think of two lines of figures that might work for Chichimecs, both unfortunately long OOP. You could place a want ad to see whether anyone has a secret stash of them that he might part with. I have both types, but I'm not selling, sorry.

Back in the '80s, I think, Strategem Miniatures made three poses of Amazonian Indians as part of their big-25mm-scale Brazilian Sugar Wars line. There were two archers and one swinging a war club, butt naked except for a cord or two around wrist and ankle, no equipment. No quivers for the bows or spare arrows, the arrows were the super-long Amazon style, the warclub was kind of short and nondescript. These figures' hair was mid-length and tied with a cord around the head – looks Chichimec to me. I have 15 of them on my painting table right now. Anatomy is kind of crude, they're barrel-chested and squatty and their muscle-definition is blobby, but I'll paint them as pretty as I can, and they'll do.

Back in the '90s, London War Rooms made a set of 28mm Early Apaches, five poses including two archers, two poses with stone-headed warclubs, one pose stabbing with a spear. The figures came with several different shields and separate spears, the arms are a bit bendy, you could do a lot with those figures. They have long Apache hair with wide headbands, boot moccasins, and breech-clouts pieced together from rabbit skins. They're some barrel-chested, but have better muscle definition than the old Strategem figs.

Dixon has three poses in their big-25mm Apache line who are stripped to breech-clout and boot moccasins, but the breech-clouts are the long fabric type. Still, these figures are available and they might do. As I recall two carry long spears and one is an archer. These figures are kind of skinny with hollow bellies, you can see their ribs. Probably accurate for Apaches or Chichimecs.

The problem I have with the Copplestone Amazonians for this application is, they're all wearing very distinctive Moe Howard soup-bowl haircuts. That looks very Amazonian to me, not at all south-western. Also, the big two-handed wooden war-clubs they're swinging look Amazonian, not south-western. They're beautiful, state-of-the-art figs, I have a set and I loved painting them.

If you're not completely fixated on Chichimecs, some manufacturers make or promise figure lines that could be sparring partners for your Aztecs. Monday Knight Productions makes Tlaxcalans as auxiliaries for Conquistador armies. You could probably pick selected figures from Aztec lines to bulk out a Tlaxcalan or Huaxtec army. Paymaster Games currently offers late-Mayan figures, like the guys in Apocalypto, and is expanding that line. I think someone else makes Mayans, but I'd have to Google them.

Good luck with your project. What rules are you planning to use?

Have not seen Eureka in person yet, may get some to try. I have a bunch of Foundry Inca and Aztec that were cheap on ebay and am expecting some ( again cheap ebay find ) assault group Aztec/Tlaxcalans figures soon as well to mix in with them
Will use mostly TAG I think at the moment, where did you order your eureka figures from as I think I will see what they are like as well.

It depends on what you want them to look like, I actually talked to the Historian/Anthropologist about my 15mm DBA Army at the "Indian Pueblo Cultural Center" in Albuquerque. (once, briefly fifteen years ago?).

He was not terribly helpful, but at least did not actively object to the project.

There just is not that much evidence for clothing and appearance.

You might consider the old Ral Partha Aztec Peasants (25mm), they have what I feel is an appropriate lack of equipment and decoration. At $4 USD each these days, worse than 28mm. Also the correct scrawny look as opposed to 28mm Conquistadors.

I can't recall the principal academic source off hand, but for immediate pre-contact thru contact, think Bows, lots of Bows. Probably clothing would be Breech clouts thru sleeveless tunics, but I have no idea about hairstyles. Based on what I saw at a couple of Pow-Wows, I might even go with the "Hollywood" Indian look (Headband and/or braids and a couple of feathers), It's like Horned Viking Helmets, everyone knows it is nonsense, but it looks "native american."

That's what greenstuff is for, changing the hair dos. I also found these which are similar to copplestone. A little greenstuff to change the hair and they would work. As for the weapons some trimming and adding on will modify the weapons to be correct. There are no actual Chichimec figures in 28mm that I know of but the Amazonian figures weapons and hairstyle can be easily scratch built as both are basically stone age cultures.
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Darn you Punkrabbitt, I may buy a handful of these figures to convert just to see what I can come up with.

My collection includes some Partha Aztecs too. They're old school true 25mm, about shoulder-high to a 28mm figure.

I've found a fair amount of material on early Puebloan dress and warfare, maybe more than there was 15 years ago, though it's not in a form very accessible to wargamers. Maybe someone will collate and interpret it, and write an Osprey. Henh.

Josephine Paterek Encyclopedia of American Indian Costume has entries on traditional dress for several Pueblo communities, from the prehistoric through the historical eras. They're concise, but give a good overview and are very helpful when used along with other material.

Polly Schaafsma Warrior, Shield, and Star/Imagery and Ideology of Pueblo Warfare is my main source for Puebloan war culture. Schaafsma reproduces and interprets a lot of rock art and many old kiva murals, showing how the Puebloans visually represented themselves.

I found more of interest in Frank Waters Book of the Hopi. This book mainly records traditional Hopi spiritual beliefs and their annual ceremonial cycle, but it illustrates more about traditional and ceremonial dress and hairstyles, and includes much oral history, including a detailed account of the first big battle between Hopis and Navajos.

The Hopis are just one of the Puebloan communities, I can see I have much more to learn. One day I'd like to visit.

I've found one figure I think is a reasonable proxy for a prehistoric Pueblo warrior, from the old Rafm Flint & feather line. Originally marketed as IN-3 Ottawa, today it's sold as just one pose in a pack of three different, but you might be able to get an order made up of just this one pose if you write to Rafm. It's a true 25mm figure, but some bigger than the old Parthas, and the extra-thick Rafm base gives it more height.

I like this figure because 1) he's wearing a kilt, 2) his hair is long and loose (one lock in front seems to be braided), 3) he's shooting a bow, 4) he has a shield.

Imperfections are 1) the kilt is shorter than I like, 2) he's barefoot, 3) the shield is smaller than I like, 4) I wish there was more than one pose, maybe someone with a club or lance.

You could address some of these issues, if they bother you, with minor conversions, or just with a paint brush. See what you think:

‌Rafm IN-3 Ottawa by zippyfusenet, on Flickr

My ebay purchase just arrived today, it had assault group, foundry and eureka figures in there.
Foundry and assault group go well together forget putting eureka with either of them.
Am going to stick with foundry and assault group with some outpost if they work as well.

The problem I have with the Copplestone Amazonians for this application is, they're all wearing very distinctive Moe Howard soup-bowl haircuts. That looks very Amazonian to me, not at all south-western. Also, the big two-handed wooden war-clubs they're swinging look Amazonian, not south-western. They're beautiful, state-of-the-art figs, I have a set and I loved painting them.

My thoughts exactly. The hair's not right and the weapons are not right. Even the bows are the real long ones used by amazonian tribes.

I'd buy the Huaxtecs from Outpost Games (scan down the page a bit):

link

I needed unarmoured Aztecs for my Aztec army and got them to just sell me Aztecs wearing loincloths (maxtli in Nahuatl). Of course they have a distinctive Aztec hairstyle, but it is much closer to those worn by Chichimecs. See second figure from the left:

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Keep in mind that the term "chichimeca" covers a lot of cultural and technological territory. While many chichimeca were the archetypical naked savages, others had absorbed a considerable amount of material (and conceptual) culture from the states of Anahuac and related northern Mesoamerican zones (Tarascans, Huaxteca, Matlatzinca etc…).

What you say is so right. In fact the Aztecs are a Chichimec tribe. One other thing was the common language used by all these people, Nahuatl. With that in mind I think the Matlatzinca are the only Chichimec Nahuatl speakers in your example. The Tarascans are actually from the Purepecha culture and the Huaxtecs are split from the Yucatec Mayans. Neither peoples are Chichimecs.