Mute Bystander | 24 Jun 2016 3:49 a.m. PST |
I have the wonderful. (In two sizes) Venturian figures and really like them but it did get me thinking with the latest picture showing the 6mm version weapon mix: Gauss Rifle X 2 Advanced Combat Rifle X 3 Particle Accelerator Rifle X 2 Accelerator carbine X 2 Plasma Rifle X 2 I understand how soldiers "acquire weapons" such as early Garands to replace Springfields in WW2 but this appears to be a standard TO&E mix. Perhaps there are rules that easily reflect such a mix but in Real life most squads I remember reading about might have a common "rifle" weapon – some with attached grenade launcher nowadays, earlier perhaps a dedicated grenadier – and a LMG/BAR/SAW. Other weapons were attached or issued as expendable "rounds" I believe. 1). Do the Laser Storm rules reflect different ranges and/effects of the weapons like the old FGU (pre-40k) Space Marine did? 2) Was this a common TO&E type situation in historical armies (Lord help the the logistics officer) at any time prior to "tomorrow" of SF and how did it work? 3). How does it work in games compared to more traditional TO&E mixes/rules? I really don't want another set of small unit SF rules but if this works easier than the pages of tables FGU has in my copies than I might have to change this year's budget. |
Extra Crispy | 24 Jun 2016 5:41 a.m. PST |
Historically every man in a platoon has the same weapon. The further back you go the more thst is true. A platoon will have some specialists (LMG/SAW or grenade launcher). My guess is the picture is to show the weapons, not reflect a TO&E |
Martin Rapier | 24 Jun 2016 5:48 a.m. PST |
Weapon mixes in WW2 sections could be quite varied. A not uncommon situation would be: An NCO (Or two) with SMGs. An LMG (or two) with crew (some of whom may also carry pistols) A bunch of blokes with rifles of some sort. Possibly someone with a marksman weapon (G43 or similar). Someone (or two) with a rifle grenade launcher. Possibly some disposable anti-tank weapons (Panzerfaust, tekker mines, sticky bombs etc). Possibly someone carrying one of the company AT weapons (ATR/PIAT/Panzerschreck/bazooka). Having a serious mix of small arms types would be unusual though outside of the SMG/rifle divide. You may get some unusual TO&Es like Volksgrenadier platoons with two sections armed almost exclusively with SMG/assault rifles, but a bunch of blokes with rifles and LMGs in the third section to provide some ranged capability. |
Gaz0045 | 24 Jun 2016 5:56 a.m. PST |
A present day 'Western' squad could have 5.56, 7.62, 9 and 40 mm rounds, throw in more specialist weapon types and you can add several more ammo calibres let alone type……sniper rifles and anti-tank weapons etc…. |
Stryderg | 24 Jun 2016 6:05 a.m. PST |
You guys need to think about the next Dirtling-Venturian war, not the last one. With the advent of varied armor types, varied weapon types are a necessity. You don't want your soldiers armed with particle projectors if the enemy is equipped with magnetic-field-generating armor. And you don't want laser rifles if the enemy's got reflective armor. Since you don't know what they'll be wearing, you need a rifle for every occasion. I don't have Laser Storm, so I can't help there, sorry. |
Mute Bystander | 24 Jun 2016 7:16 a.m. PST |
Extra Crispy and Martin Rapier have completely different responses. Hmmm. What to do? Maybe Nordic Weasel will comment about ranges, armor/weapon relationships, and why the mix of weapons in the small unit.. |
Darkest Star Games | 24 Jun 2016 8:03 a.m. PST |
As far as the figure design intent goes, Styrderg has it on the button. Both the Fed and Vent lift troops are designed as "immediate action" troops that are dropped from orbit to some hot spot on whatever mission is required. As they never know what they'll be up against they carry a variety of weapons to deal with whatever armor type they may encounter. Now, if they were line grunts there'd be less variation (as the enemy would be known) and specialist weapons would be grouped into teams rather than integrated into the squad itself. The setup is rather like a modern US infantry squad with a couple of "standard" rifles, a couple with grenade launchers beneath, marksman rifle (different from a sniper rifle), saw gunners, and maybe a shotgun for breaching… sort of a combined arms, where the arms are individual weapons instead of tanks or aircraft. I don't think Laser Storm differentiates weapons within an infantry stand, but it does have differences between special or support weapon stands and infantry stands. |
Legion 4 | 24 Jun 2016 8:42 a.m. PST |
I posted this on another thread. But you may find this helpful M/B … As far as US Mech Inf Squads '84-'90. The 11 man squads in my Mech Plts consisted of Two 5 man Fire Tms + 1 SL. These Squads were armed : 2 M203 GL 2 M249 SAW 1 M47 Dragon MAW 1 M60 MG [The Fire Tm either had the M47 or M60.] The other 5 Squad members' primary weapon was the M16. M72 LAWs could be issued as needed [along with grenades, M18 claymores, etc.]. The M47 and M60 A-Gunners had to pack extra ammo for each respectively. Also the Mech Squad had an M2 .50cal mounted on the M113 APC. It could be dismounted, but usually only in the Defense. As it was much too heavy [128 lbs., IIRC] for dismounted movement. So M/B as you can see, the Mech Squad had a good mix of Anti-Personnel and Anti-Armor weapons. And MGs do make good Anti-Aircraft weapons as well. The concept is to have enough firepower to take on anything you run into. And of course you can always call Higher HQ for mortars, CAS, FA, etc., support …
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Martin Rapier | 24 Jun 2016 8:45 a.m. PST |
"Extra Crispy and Martin Rapier have completely different responses. Hmmm. What to do?" What EC says is broadly correct. In a 1914 section, everyone has (the same) rifle. (as in 1814 and 1714! except they are muskets) In 1916, one chap may have a rifle grenade, one of the others almost certainly has a bag of bombs. In 1920, a couple of them have an LMG (and the rest still have rifles, plus maybe a rifle grenade). This persists until 1939, when the lucky NCO (in some armies) might get an SMG. Modern rifle sections are ridiculous. A couple of guys have normal rifles, a couple have UGLs, one may have a marksman rifle, there will be a couple of SAWs or maybe a SAW and GPMG. Plus some sort of anti-tank weapon(s). |
Legion 4 | 24 Jun 2016 8:53 a.m. PST |
I'd think since we are talking about Sci-fi/future warfare. A Modern weapons mix, like I posted of my Mech Squads, would be more applicable to "Venturians", I'd think … We have learned and have had many technical advances since WWI, WWII, Korea, and even Vietnam. Like Combined Arms works well with higher units above Squad level … We see the weapons mix of a modern Inf Squad is a bit of a "Combined Arms" concept as well. |
Weasel | 24 Jun 2016 10:32 a.m. PST |
With regards to LaserStorm, typically, the firearms of an infantry stand are amalgamated into a single averaged profile, though you can build stands with disparate weapons. For gameplay purposes, its a lot more comfortable to have one "small arms" stat line and one "anti-tank" stat line (for example). |
Legion 4 | 24 Jun 2016 12:58 p.m. PST |
Yes … that is the way to do it … |
Oberlindes Sol LIC | 24 Jun 2016 1:13 p.m. PST |
I use 25mm Ventaurans as Zhodani in StarGrunt games. They have Tau gun drones and RAFM Traveller robots for warbots. An infantry squad is usually five men and a robot. The robot may have a laser carbine, a gauss rifle, a plasma gun (PGMP-14 in Traveller terms), or a gauss SAW. The men's weapons usually include a couple of gauss rifles, a missile or rocket launcher, a laser rifle, and a plasma gun. Each platoon has three regular squads, a robot squad (2 Tau gun drones with plasma guns and a RAFM warbot with a laser carbine), and a platoon leader element (platoon leader with gauss rifle, specialist with commo and maybe EW, 1 robot (either RAFM warbot or Tau gun drone)). They carry a variety of weapons to meet a variety of threats. They could be facing armored vehicles, infantry in powered armor (Traveller battle dress), or fortified positions. They can use their laser weapons as target designators for off-table support. StarGrunt manages having a variety of weapon types pretty smoothly. |
Weasel | 24 Jun 2016 4:15 p.m. PST |
Bear in mind that whether your rules are single figure or stand-based makes a big difference here. |
Oberlindes Sol LIC | 24 Jun 2016 5:07 p.m. PST |
Weasel, that's not necessarily true. Stands in Striker, the Traveller miniatures wargame, can have up to four individuals, each with a different weapon. Fire is resolved one weapon at a time, which can be time-consuming. |
Weasel | 24 Jun 2016 6:00 p.m. PST |
Glenn – good call but there's probably a reason nobody uses that approach naymore :-) When we played Striker, we used individual figures and just kinda pushed them together in fours, which worked surprisingly well. We used it with Traveller a lot, so that also made it easier to work with individual characters. |
Mute Bystander | 25 Jun 2016 8:19 a.m. PST |
So… Order several packages of figures and create same weapon fire teams working in mutually supporting combinations? Off the cuff, 4 X Plasma Rifles as "Bren like" fireteam (FT) for suppressive fire 6 X Advanced Combat Rifles as a standard Mark I "Rifle FT" 2 "Assault teams" each of 2 Particle Accelerator Riflemen and 2 Particle Accelerator Carbinemen 4 X Gauss Rifles as a longer ranged point suppression or longer ranged Mark II standard rifle FT. |
Legion 4 | 25 Jun 2016 9:02 a.m. PST |
That should work as you created your own small version of "combined arms" … |
Lion in the Stars | 25 Jun 2016 11:26 p.m. PST |
Something I've noticed as a military trend is for the supporting weapons to get pushed down to lower and lower command levels as the years go by. In WW1, mortars were Regimental weapons at best, and Machine Guns were battalion assets. In WW2, light mortars were down to company control, and medium mortars were at Battalion. Sustained-fire MGs were platoon or company assets, depending on nation. In Vietnam, medium mortars were at company, light mortars might be in platoon (depends on formation type), and sustained-fire MGs are at platoon. Today's US Army fireteam has a sustained-fire weapon (the M249 SAW) and an indirect-fire weapon (40mm GL). I will admit that the M249 isn't really intended for tripod sustained fire, but it does have a bipod and quick-change barrel. The infantry squad has an ATGM (Javelin) and a designated marksman. The platoon has a couple M240s in it, and a Stryker company has dedicated snipers, heavy mortars, and even some large-caliber HE. I think OGRE was correct in saying that any combat unit worthy of the name had direct and indirect fire capabilities. Like how the Koreans have added a 120mm top-attack round to lob 5-8km and let it search for targets to pop. My dream force has ICVs and IFVs armed with 50mm chainguns to get a decent anti-obstacle round. |
Legion 4 | 26 Jun 2016 7:49 a.m. PST |
Yes, as we see … in many cases the IFV replaced the APC. The IFV being both having better armor and firepower. E.g. the M113 with M2 .50 cal vs. the M2 Bradley with 25mm Bushmaster and TOWs. But Infantry still has to do it's job on the ground. Especially in closed or mixed terrain. So the dismounted Infantry still must have firepower that they can carry along with them with "reasonable" ease. Like I said the .50 is too heavy to carry very far in rough terrain or otherwise. The old 11 man Squad in my day was a pretty good mix of firepower with MGs, GLs and AT. And even with 2 of the Squad staying with the Carrier. Hopefully the PC could be in a covered/concealed position to support the 9 dismounts. But in many types of terrain, etc., that is always not possible. Like in thick woods or jungle or when running dismounted night patrols, etc. And the Bradley with all that firepower can't always support the dismounts either. In similar situations as I stated.
Today's US Army fireteam has a sustained-fire weapon (the M249 SAW) and an indirect-fire weapon (40mm GL). I will admit that the M249 isn't really intended for tripod sustained fire, but it does have a bipod and quick-change barrel. The infantry squad has an ATGM (Javelin) And I'm very glad the old M47 Dragon MAW was replaced with a much more effect AT weapon like the Javelin. |