"CV Graf Zeppelin Redux" Topic

"During the course of the sea war to the end of 1941, the aircraft carrier took on ever-greater significance: British carrier-based planes were able to make a heavy attack on the Italian fleet at Tarento in November of 1940, a chance strike by British torpedo bombers decided the battle against the battleship BISMARCK, and the successful attack of carrier-supported Japanese bombers and torpedo planes against the American fleet at Pearl Harbor made this, change in maritime war and its weapons abundantly clear. Thus the lack of their own aircraft carriers was soon seen in Germany as a great disadvantage, and the naval leadership was constantly under pressure to finish the GRAF ZEPPELIN and put it into service. The decisive discussion took place at the Führer's headquarters on April 16, 1942. Its results can be summed up as follows:
1. The work on the ship's hull and machinery-at first just half the powerplant-could be done by the summer of 1943.
2. The use of adapted versions of the aircraft types "Me 109" or "Bf 109" and "Ju 87" as originally planned, the only possibilities considered at that time, made certain modifications of the flight system necessary. Above all, high-powered catapults would be necessary, and their development, construction and testing would require up to two years. The possibility of adapting the existing catapults and making them ready for use was also considered, though, and the space of six months seemed sufficient for this. In view of this situation, the winter of 1943-44 appeared to be the earliest possible time at which the carrier could be completed. The development of a special type of aircraft for carrier use seemed, as the Luftwaffe saw it, not to be possible before 1946.
3. The Luftwaffe at first declared that it was ready to prepare ten fighter planes and twenty-two dive bombers (which were also to be used for reconnaissance). The use of torpedo bombers was given up because of Hitler's attitude that they were not necessary.

Under these conditions, the Naval High Command issued orders on May 13, 1942 for the continued construction and completion of the carrier GRAF ZEPPELIN. Along with the changes in the flight system, there were several other modifications that had become necessary on account of the further development of naval technology since 1938-39. Above all, the structure of the island was no longer sufficient. A heavy mast with a fighter-plane command post in its top and radar equipment had to replace the former staff mast, and the ship's command and weapons control headquarters had to be housed in a shrapnel-proof housing. In addition, a tall funnel was necessary to keep the fighter command post free of smoke. All of this effected a considerable gain in weight, which-to maintain the ship's stability-had to be equalized. For that reason, bulges were built on either side, which primarily had the job of equalizing weight. The port bulge was made of normal ST 52 shipbuilding steel, the starboard bulge of thinner material, 18mm thick at most. The bulges had a maximum width of 2.4 meters and were attached over the bilge keels. They were partially used as heating-oil bunkers; this allowed an increase in the ship's range, which had previously been considered too short. In addition, the bulges offered the advantage of better protection against underwater weapons, because if a torpedo or mine struck, the center of detonation would be moved farther out…."

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Amicalement
Armand

As cool a what-if as it is (and I have the ship in 1/1850 and 1/600 a/c for both a 1939 GZ what-if and a 1944 GZ what-if), if it wasn't ready before the war, it wasn't going to make any big impact. Where on earth could it have worked up in trials by 1944…

I'd imagine the loss rate for 109's on carrier landings would be horrific.

DELETED…

Maybe he would work in the North Sea?….

Amicalement
Armand

Yes, the carrier would have way too little, too late. They really needed to do the projected merchant conversions (Jade and Elbe) to serve as training platforms. Even then everything would have needed to be finished by 1942 or so, allowing the carriers to work up in the Baltic, safe (mostly) from enemy forces.

-Will

Baltic Sea seems about the only viable location to me, and that would have been dangerous, but not as much as breaking out into the North Sea, and/or North Atlantic.

A pity it never became operational. It would have been interesting to see how they used it, and how efficiently they could operate it.

I concur, switching to navalized FWs from the '109s would probably have been encouraged.

What if it can carried ME-262??….

Amicalement
Armand

What if it can carried ME-262??….

Highly unlikely without high capacity steam-powered catapults. And very heavily reinforced arrester gear. The 262 need a long take-off run to reach flight speed, and was a very heavy beast with a high stall speed.

John Baxter's "Tragerflotten" proposed using the Henkel HE-100 as an alternative.

Sure it makes an interesting "what if" … but seriously?

If it wasn't completed and worked-up by about 1934, there was no way Germany was going to have a useful aircraft carrier in 1944.

Can anyone point to any navy that was able to work up their own, original, productive and useful naval air arm in less than 10 years of actual experience at sea with working carriers?

If the GZ had been completed in 1942 (not even realistic), and if the GZ had fighters and bombers available at the time it launched (again not realistic), and had a protected area of several thousand square KM of sea space in which to work up without risk of enemy air or submarine attack, by 1944 they would have had a ship that could sail into danger with it's own planes chopping up deck crew and rolling overboard at laughable rates, with aircraft ordnance and avgas fumes randomly accumulating to lethal concentrations in who-knows-which corner, and escorts at the wrong distances and in the wrong configurations and formations to provide useful support.

Being able to launch a boat with a deck on it is only a small fraction of the challenges of naval aviation. Today one can read 100 books and watch 1,000 videos on how deck work can and should be done. In 1942? Not so much…

And BTW, wave away all of what real-world experience shows us naval aviation needs to become productive, and just look at the ship, and you have to scratch your head and say "huh"?

10 fighters and 22 dive bombers? Really? All that wishful thinking, and this is the best you can wish for?

Compare that with the USS Ranger. A reasonable point of caparison, as like the GZ it was the first ship purpose-built as a carrier by it's navy. But the USN had already converted 3 other ships to carriers and had accumulated years of experience operating them, so the USN's first purpose-built carrier was purpose-built with knowledge born of experience. Even so it was considered such an under-achiever that it was considered incapable of major league carrier operations in the Pacific, where fleet carriers were desperately needed, and was instead relegated to the minor leagues in the Atlantic.

Oh, and Ranger carried as many as 76 aircraft. And could maintain a combat tempo of more than 150 sorties per day over multiple days (as demonstrated during Torch). A strike package from Ranger in 1944 typically consisted of 20 dive bombers and 10 torpedo bombers, each with 6 to 8 fighters as escort, all the while keeping a CAP over the ship and additional aircraft ready for follow-up. And of course Ranger typically operated in the company of at least 2 or 3 other allied carriers.

Sure it makes an interesting "what if" … but seriously, what if GZ, with 10 Messerschmitts, handled by the naval equivalent of rodeo clowns, came up against that…

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Yes, any projected German carrier program had MASSIVE problems:

1. Not enough experience in operations: even if the ship design was sound (questionable) there just wasn't enough time to build up the experienced ship and air crew needed to create a viable carrier force. They needed to start a carrier program (as in carriers on the water) in the 1930's as Mk. 1 points out. All of the major carrier navies got started in the 20's. Even the French had a carrier at that point!
2. Bad Aircraft: the Bf-109 would have had all of the problems of the Seafire and then some. The Stuka would have been ok in 1939-1940 but after that? The Fi-167 was at least designed with carrier operation in mind but it was of similar capabilities to the Swordfish. There was semi-serious possibilities of making the entire airgroup FW-190's, as there was a torpedo toting variant, but that was a long shot.
3. Not enough decks: Two carriers weren't enough to train and operate a carrier force, between operational, training and refit requirements. To get something kinda viable would have required both of the considered GZ follow on carriers, both of the proposed merchant conversions (for training purposes probably) and both of the projected liner conversions (Europa and her sister), AND for all of this work to be done much, much earlier (or for the war to start later).
Or go totally alternate history as the Tragerflotten book proposes.
4. Weak Airgroups: the GZ and her projected sister operating together would still be weaker than a US or Japanese fleet carrier and not really much stronger than a single armored British carrier. Could the GZ provided vital air cover for a surface raider sortie? Maybe. Would it likely have gotten the worst of it versus any other operational carrier late in the war? Almost certainly.

-Will

Guys! Come on, what are you doing injecting logic and facts into another "if the Germans had only" fantasy? ;)

On a more serious note ANYTHING would have been better than the 109 for carrier duties with the FW 190 being the best option. However, The He 100 would also have been interesting. It had good landing and take of characteristics, and a nice wide undercarriage, and much better range/endurance than the Messerschmitt. I must try and get a copy of Tragerflottten.

Fatman

Fatman:
Took me a year to get both the book Tragerflotten and Traegerflotten Data Book. The second one is better.

I am always amazed that people can game Nazi flying saucers, werewolves and zombies. But CARRIERS?? Come On!!! THAT is crazy talk!!

If you really want to start a fireworks show, let's discuss not the fact that the GZ would only have 30-40 planes, but the fact that if operational in 1940-41 she still would have had more planes than most RN carriers and it would have been BF-109Ts ( or HE-100s :) ) vs Skuas, Fulmars, Sea Gladiators and Swordfish.

Just sayin…..

Of course, the flying saucers were more likely than Goering actually ever providing 30 planes and air crews to the Navy of all people and damned if he was going to let them have their own planes.

I am always amazed that people can game Nazi flying saucers, werewolves and zombies. But CARRIERS?? Come On!!! THAT is crazy talk!!

Well, some of us don't game flying saucers or zombies.

But what ifs, even in historical (and quasi-historical) gaming can be fun.

So … what if the GZ had been completed by 1941? It would have been useless, because the Germans needed 10 years of seaborne experience to figure out how to use it.

What if we wave that all away and magically have the ship commissioned early (say 1940?), shaken out with no flaws(!) by 1941, and then and magically have the Germans learn how to operate carriers 10x faster than anyone other nation did (because, well, Germans are so uber!). Then by 1942 they would have had a light carrier. Yawn.

A light carrier with a great big bullseye painted on it. Gulp.

I figure if it ever sailed into action it would have lasted probably about 2 1/2 hours -- about the time for the first strike to reach it after it had been reported by reconnaissance aircraft or scouting ships.

If you really want to start a fireworks show, let's discuss not the fact that the GZ would only have 30-40 planes, but the fact that if operational in 1940-41 she still would have had more planes than most RN carriers and it would have been BF-109Ts ( or HE-100s :) ) vs Skuas, Fulmars, Sea Gladiators and Swordfish.

The reason that RN carriers carried 30 to 40 planes in 1940 was because the RAF, which controlled production, did not allocate more resources to building RNAS aircraft. And guess what? The Kriegsmarine faced the same issue! Goering committed to provide all of 10 Me-109Ts at the time of launch.

But the RNAS, while short on planes, already had fully developed deck handling procedures and several squadrons of trained naval aviators. The Germans had no squadrons of trained naval aviators.

In 1929 when the USN had all of ONE carrier (Langley) up and operational, it also had a naval aviation program with 500 pilots and 900 planes. The Germans were building 32 planes for their naval aviation program….

I would expect most of the first order of planes to be lost in training accidents.

Maybe we can wave that away with our magic wand too. So what if GZ was launched, and there were enough Me-109Ts to actually train a squadron?

I'd rather have Skuas. Or Sea Gladiators.

Do you understand what a challenge the 109T would have been in carrier operations?

The landing gear issue has been raised, but let's consider it for a few moments. The 109 wheels were not perpendicular to the ground. Narrow track is one thing … Wildcat (Martlet) had a narrow track too, and it worked fine on carrier decks. But the 109 had a cant to it's landing gear. If you put differential weight on the landing gear the plane veered off to one side. So it was tricky to handle, and inexperienced pilots did more than a few ground loops … well that's not too critical if you are operating from a fully stable big empty square grass field. But its really bad if you are operating from a pitching rolling narrow crowded busy deck.

Ever try riding a skate-board on a ship? At 70 – 100 mph? On a ship sailing at 25kts? In the North Sea? With a 14 foot diameter meat-chopper in front of you, while surrounded by two dozen under-trained inexperienced sailors walking about focused on wheel chocks or tie-downs or the horizon?

A carrier deck, during flight operations, is one of the most dangerous places on earth. How well a plane handles the peculiarities of carrier operations is not a small issue in naval aviation! That is one of the reasons that aircraft that appear ridiculously obsolete by then-current Air Force standards were kept in service as long as they were. If it was stable, if it could fly from and land on and be handled on the deck, it was better than a superior aircraft that could not.

The Germans had no idea. But that's not a criticism. Just a recognition of fact. The British had no idea, the Americans and no idea, the Japanese had no idea, until AFTER they tried it. Then they got ideas.

So what if the GZ had actually been commissioned, and what if it had managed its way through sea trials, and actually shipped an airgroup for operational training? Then after a couple dozen deck hands got chopped up, and half a dozen planes went over the side, not to mention a few planes crashing onto the deck or bouncing off the stern of the ship, they would have put it back in port, started reworking their deck handling procedures, started design of new planes to put on it, and ordered several hundred to be constructed.

But what if … what if the Germans started earlier, and put He-100s on it, and figured out how to do carrier stuff all outside of the range of allied attack? Then they would have had something in their hands as capable as the IJN Ryujo or USN Independence. Yawn.

Oh but it would have been about the equivalent of the HMS Furious, wouldn't it? With a larger airgroup than the HMS Hermes or HMS Eagle, and almost as large of an airgroup as HMS Glorious, HMS Courageous, HMS Ark Royal, HMS Illustrious, HMS Formidable, HMS Victorious or HMS Indomitable. Perhaps those are the right comparisons, because if GZ managed to somehow magically find its way into service in 1941 those would have been it's adversaries.

Did you notice, though, how rather expansive that list was? So what if the Germans managed to put one operational light carrier to sea by 1941, against an RN which had already commissioned 10 carriers?

Could be a fun wargame. I got no objection to shooting at German stuff. Another Bismark? Well sure, why not? Another legendary ubership that is sunk on its first combat sortie. Wouldn't have taken quite as long, though. Whatever else we might say about Bismark, it was demonstrated to have a pretty tough hull. GZ? Not so much.

So not likely to be quite such a long chase. Maybe about 2 1/2 hours.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

I'd be curious to hear how well the French did with the Bearn, I expect it's the same situation only 15 years further on…