"'Game of Thrones' Is Showing Symptoms of Michael Bay-itis..." Topic

I am really getting annoyed.
They take a character I really like as a hero. Then they turn him into the biggest idiot in Westeros.
As the article points out, that's the 4th battle where the heritage saved by a last minute deus ex machina. That really gets boring.
Why can't the Good Guys win by being smarter, by planning, by using better tactics?
I must admit that hitting a pavise pike phalanx in the rear with a cavalry wedge is indeed sound tactics. But leaving a fortified position whose flanks can't be turned to get hedged on and suffocated is not.

Tolkien writes better dei ex machina than that. At least with the Riders of Rohan and the Dead, we could follow their progress. He didn't have them show up with no progress reports at all.

All the good guys are stupid and lucky.

They keep killing the good generals. Robb Stark showed sound tactical thinking, but made poor political choices. Tywin Lannister showed sound strategic thinking but underestimated his enemy (Tyrion). Stannis Baratheon put too much faith in his unreliable intelligence (the Red Woman's prophecies), and not enough in his reliable advisors (Ser Davos).

Jon Snow, on the other hand, is brave and hell on wheels with a sword, but has only had experience of irregular warfare with the wildlings and a few skirmishes. He has never been a general at a set piece battle. He also has a chip on his shoulder about being a Snow, so he's clinging to his family connections after his adopted family, the Knights Watch, betrayed him – hence he would run into a cavalry charge to save his brother.

"I must admit that hitting a pavise pike phalanx in the rear with a cavalry wedge is indeed sound tactics".

Assuming that ever happened in real life.

How hard can it be to have men turn in place, unless otherwise already engaged in combat to their front?

Seems to me it would be virtually impossible to catch a pike unit in the rear or flank, if even they were only minorly skilled. Granted, you wouldn't have the heavy front lines in the right place, but those pike tips would still be there.

Seems to me it would be virtually impossible to catch a pike unit in the rear or flank

Didn't Alexander catch a Theban phalanx in the rear at Chaeronea?

We had a good look at such a formation in the show. At least two ranks of pavisiers in front and third ranks. Second rank projecting pikes. Fourth in reserve. To turn such a formation about face would first require ORDERS to do so. To do it un-ordered would be impossible. Did they even have a drill for it?
Secondly, the pikes are in essence locked. Perhaps the fourth and third rank could turn, but did they have the drill to turn and exchange ranks? I doubt it.
No individual pikeman would, or could have turned around.

Plus, the battle is in a valley and the Knights of the Vale came right over the lip of the valley. No time, even if ordered or drilled. Jaime would at least have had scouts and pickets out.

EDIT. Autocorrect changed "pikeman" to "Pokemon".

They should have given Wun Wun a tree like he had at Hardhome.

Jon had a good plan. He's not stupid. If you listen to Ser Davos, they were going to draw the Boltons in, Cannae-style. Then Jon saw Rikkon die, and he lost it. Sansa tried to warn him, but her warning was too vague, and/or he just forgot everything in that moment of rage. And then, ironically, he did exactly what he was hoping Ramsay would do, and ended up being the one encircled.

There is a moment there, after his horse is shot out from under him, where Jon realizes his mistake. I think he learned a lesson, and will be more cautious next time.

Like I said in the other thread: Gwindor and Gelmir in the Fifth Battle of the Silmarillion.

Ramsay turned Jon's words around on him. Remember the day before the battle when Jon challenges Ramsay to single combat and then points out that he is expecting men to fight for him when he won't fight for them? Ramsay plays the same game with Rickon, in full sight of both armies will Jon risk himself for Rickon? Ramsay was exactly what Sansa warned Jon about, he was smart and he had a gift for playing games with people, for getting inside their heads. Look at what the Japanese did to Halsey at Leyte Gulf. They knew that he couldn't resist going after their carriers and they hoped it would give them just enough time to steam through and take out the invasion fleet. But for the brave men and sacrifice of Taffy 8 it might have worked. Even after receiving Nimitz's "the whole world wonders" (yes, I know that wasn't supposed to be part of the message) message, Halsey continued to steam away from the battle for an hour. Was Halsey stupid, did that action overwhelm his whole career?

As for turning the Pike formation, I am far from an expert on it but it seems to me that you would need;

A) to be trained to do it, Infantry Training doesn't seem to be a strong suit of Westerosi Military Doctrine
B) someone in command who can issue the order
C) the time to do it, remember the word has to reach both of the flanks of the formation before it can be executed

"They should have given Wun Wun a tree like he had at Hardhome."

That was the dumbest thing about the battle. I haven't read the books so I do not know if it went the same there as well.

Besides, GoT happens in a medieval setting. Medieval pike formations weren't particularly flexible and able to react to sudden threats to their flank and rear.

Let's not forget that apparently no Northern Lords were aware that House Bolton used the WRG Late Burgundian Army List.
Every other Northern House fought like Wildlings, but with armor.

Jaysus, I'm turning into a Wrong Tank Syndrome movie watcher.
This is why wargamers are disqualified from reviewing movies.

But even Dale Dye could have gotten that right.

It's a good drinking game to watch GoT and point out the scenes that they "borrowed".
Michael confronting Carlo in the kitchen.
Anakin and Padme at the lake villa.
Maximus, wounded, head hanging over the end of the cart.
T-Rex having raptors climbing all over her.
And at least 20 more.
The French call it "homage". The less charitable call it "stealing".

And for politics, let's have Dany try nation building.

As for military training, having police squads of 5 patrol the streets with pikes is brilliant too.

Maybe, some of the characters will turn out to be Bayliens.

Having the good guys losing until, just in the nick of time, cavalry or something else comes to save the day has been a staple of Hollywood for decades. It is stale and we all knew that Little Finger was coming, but they still use it. Same as just as the hero is to be shot from behind or the villain is standing over him ready to pull the trigger someone else kills the person so the hero lives. Yawn, Wow never saw that one coming!

Rickinghall clearly didn't see it coming:)

I expect that the next battle will involve giant eagles to save the day?

Giant eagles pick up every living soul in Westeros, fly off the edge of the digital screen and into LoTR where they are all dropped in to Mount Doom and forged in to Pokemon balls of incredible power….

The French call it "homage". The less charitable call it "stealing".

too much "Homage" becomes "Fromage".

Patrick, do you remember the blazon of the Vale knights?

They should have given Wun Wun a tree like he had at Hardhome.

And yet he came unarmed- and remained so! Talk about pissing away a massive advantage. I can see they'd be afraid he'd have ripped a hole in that phalanx right quick with ANYTHING that had reach, but he should have at least started out with something.

Let's not forget that apparently no Northern Lords were aware that House Bolton used the WRG Late Burgundian Army List.

I I knew Rickon was plot-expendable. When Sansa gave Jon a tongue-lashing, I knew Ricky was going to be "removed from game to immediately give opposing commander two actions of your choosing."

I could have lived without the piles of dead twelve feet high. You'd need front-end loaders and more than a few thousand corpses to make THAT.

Spoiler alert folks, George R R Martin is a big time Social Justice Warrior. He will kill of competent knights and lords at every opportunity. Evil hetro white warmongering men will never prevail against the enlightened forces of the downtrodden, so don't expect battles to be one by hard training professional armies making good tactical decisions. Nooooo!, victory must go to the morally superior disenfranchised.

If I had given John Snow my last 60 knights and he pissed them away in the worst battle plan/act of "generalship," I might be a little mad.

Ramsay was shooting into the brown too. Most of the dead horsemen came from his side. But he's a Bad Guy and can get away with that.

But that doesn't detract from the overall "Jon is an idiot" theme that all 4 GoT threads are milking this week.
He truly is an idiot.

Did we ever actually see any of Bear Island's Dirty Five-Dozen?

Sir Walter – Puh-leez! Spare us the Sad/Rabid Puppy SJW rhetoric from the Hugo Awards sh*tshow.

That said, I too found the depiction of battle to be horribly cliched to fit the needs of a tv show.

To be fair, Martin himself doesn't indulge us much with descriptions of battle.

Well, to be fair, one of the longest running mist used line of the show was, "you know nothing, Jon Snow." Should we really be that surprised? :)

Well the battle matched the battles from Braveheart.

Medieval Battles were brutal since they were fought up close and personal with swords, axes, warhammers & maces.

link

Wounds would be brutal and most deaths would have came from blunt force trauma injuries.