PrivateSnafu | 18 Jun 2016 8:16 a.m. PST |
Supposedly we live in a world of free trade. Given that why do I regularly read European TMP'rs saying that they avoid buying figures from US makers because of various duties and taxes? Even our good friends and family members in Canada seem to be getting robbed. I have ordered from various manufacturers in the UK (Gripping Beast, Footsore, 15mm.uk, others), Italy (Mirilton, Ganesha), Australia, and NZ and have NEVER had to pay any sort of extra fee or tax. Even shipping has not been overly oppressive. Why do I keep reading about people having to pay extra? Are these fees teeny tiny and the folks are simply skinflints? Is this an example in miniature (pun intended) of trade disparity p.s. Shame on the manufacturers that charge VAT when they don't have to. You are only hurting yourself, learn your trade! |
JimDuncanUK | 18 Jun 2016 8:30 a.m. PST |
There is no shortage of manufacturers, good or otherwise in the UK. It is usually possible to speak directly to many of them at UK shows. I've never seen an American product that I couldn't get a UK or European equivalent of so I've never had to place an order across the pond. |
Miniatureships | 18 Jun 2016 8:31 a.m. PST |
I think this is an issue where you need to understand how countries view trade relationships with out countries. Remember you are asking about things like taxes (VAT) duties, which are normally applied to packages coming into a country like the UK. In the US, this spotty, even for importers. Now, with the current situation, that is rising postal fees and regulations, this maybe also changing more for people importing goods from Europe and the UK for resale in the US. And, sometimes, simply put, Duties are a way of protecting manufacturers within a given country via raising the cost of goods coming from another country. Thus it has more to do with the whole of importing and exporting issues than anything to do specifically with the miniature market. |
Dave Jackson | 18 Jun 2016 8:34 a.m. PST |
Shouldn't be any duty on figs coming into Canada (NAFTA). There will, howver, be federal and provincial sales tax AND a Canada Post parcel handling fee… |
Dynaman8789 | 18 Jun 2016 8:40 a.m. PST |
Using GHQ or CinC as an example. Even WITH 40% shipping fees added to them the Heroics and Ros figs are roughly 50% to 60% of the cost of the US figs here in the US. Apply that in reverse and it is a non brainer. |
Huscarle | 18 Jun 2016 8:44 a.m. PST |
There are a number of excellent (fantasy) US figure manufacturers that I can't source in the UK, such as Crocodile, Hinterland, Harwood, Mortal Arrow, et al. However, the S&H can be & often is prohibitive, and then we get another whammy from Customs & Excise with the added joy of a bonus £8.00 GBP Post Office handling fee. Also sterling has taken quite a dive in the last few years against the dollar & what was good at £1.00 GBP=$2 isn't so good when the £1.00 GBP=$1.40. I don't know why Canadian S&H is so much cheaper than that from the USA, and for some reason I usually escape the Customs & Excise/PO charges for any Canadian purchases (only been hit once out of a dozen or so possibles)? |
Zargon | 18 Jun 2016 8:50 a.m. PST |
Simple, $ is bloody strong compared to most world currency's seeing the fed has just got to print more when your gov needs to fix a problem plus it just seems like the USPS really wants a good pension plan for its members with all its postal package size rules and costs, I'd love to buy but when I compare US to rest you always come out pretty expensive, finally, not very good discount and free post deals to the rest of us. not all (in fact some of the US companies give great sale deals at certain times and I'm a faithful customer) so long short, better deals elsewhere which is a pity as darn you guys are making some great product. |
Lovejoy | 18 Jun 2016 9:28 a.m. PST |
Why do I keep reading about people having to pay extra? Are these fees teeny tiny and the folks are simply skinflints? It's all down to Customs & Excise; in the US the import duty threshold is (IIRC) $200 USD; in the UK it is £12.00 GBPSo for example, if I order £20.00 GBP worth of minis from the US, I'll get charged an extra £4.00 GBP VAT and £8.00 GBP Handling Fee. So my £20.00 GBP order costs me 32 quid… :(
p.s. Shame on the manufacturers that charge VAT when they don't have too. You are only hurting yourself, learn your trade! To be fair, very few miniatures manufacturers are big enough to pay/charge VAT; they can't leave the VAT off overseas sales, because there isn't any VAT on them in the first place… |
Broglie | 18 Jun 2016 9:44 a.m. PST |
I have ordered stuff from the USA which has been stopped here by Belgian Customs. They then demand duty before I can collect the parcel. I have no problem with that as I know in advance that the money has to be paid. What does bug me however is the fact that the Belgian authorities then charge me an extra €25.00 EUR fee for their administration cost. That to me is a rip off. Usually by the time I have finished paying I have paid twice the total cost of the order which is offputting. |
Cold Warrior | 18 Jun 2016 9:46 a.m. PST |
Dynaman, While true, IF I were to get back into 6mm, for me quality is far more important than cost. Only way I would purchase H&R and Scotia is if GHQ or CinC failed to make it. YMMV. |
GonerGonerGoner | 18 Jun 2016 10:07 a.m. PST |
Don't mind paying the VAT too much but the £8.00 GBP fee charged by the Post Office for collecting the tax is ridiculous. Makes anything outside Europe too expensive. $60 USD of minis from US ebay attracts £16.50 GBP in VAT and fees. Another $25 USD on top. |
Timmo uk | 18 Jun 2016 10:29 a.m. PST |
I can only echo what has been written. There are lots of UK companies to buy from and import duties are a lottery but remain off putting. Of course some of us do buy US products but not directly preferring to order through their UK distributors/stockists. For somethings, Wings of Glory planes being an example, we pay in pounds sterling what can be bought in the US in dollars e.g. a $12 USD models costs us £12.00 GBP |
14Bore | 18 Jun 2016 1:10 p.m. PST |
I have never bought any non US figures, unfamiliarity maybe. |
Mike Target | 18 Jun 2016 2:10 p.m. PST |
I dont think I could name a US figures company…so far the uk has managed to provide for all my wargaming needs! |
Wargamer Blue | 18 Jun 2016 2:14 p.m. PST |
The greatest hurdle is postage costs. To order figures from the US to Australia usually results in postage costs equal to or even greater than the price of the figures. I would love to order dozens of figures from the US but postage puts a brake on me. |
bsrlee | 18 Jun 2016 2:24 p.m. PST |
A fair bit depends on your buying strategy as the fees are a fixed amount. If you buy one or two blisters and get hit with fees on top of VAT/GST the fees are a high proportion of your base cost. If you buy several hundred figures at a time then the fixed fees are negligible. Everyone is getting hit with increased postal charges – one non-wargaming company I used to order from did a dodgy deal with UPS for their shipping and now demand $US500 for any shipment – guess who isn't getting any business from me as USPS usually cost $US100 or less for a large order. Another possibility is getting together with a few friends and using a freight consolidation service – there are several out there – to put your collective orders into one box and ship that to you – one lot of fees, should be slightly lower shipping costs due to weight categories. Are we all such isolationists in our buying that we can't figure out ways to beat the system? |
chuck05 | 18 Jun 2016 3:12 p.m. PST |
It goes both ways. There are many things I would like to get from overseas but the shipping is a deal breaker for anything but a large order. |
DuckanCover | 18 Jun 2016 3:14 p.m. PST |
"The greatest hurdle is postage costs. To order figures from the US to Australia usually results in postage costs equal to or even greater than the price of the figures." Roger this, been that way for decades. Used to preface initial communications to online or eBay sellers with a sentence like "I realize that the cost of shipping may equal or exceed the cost of the goods purchased." Still bought from the US and the UK because, even with the shipping costs and exchange rate of the day, some of my goodies were cheaper than buying from local distributors (when they had what I was after). Not sure how that would be these days. Been a while since I've ordered any actual miniatures from OS. Duck |
Grunt1861 | 18 Jun 2016 5:43 p.m. PST |
Much more economical to license a manufacturer's product in your location. Pretty sure that's what Eureka Miniatures out of Australia does with their lines. The problem with the UK is that they already have most of the best stuff already. No need to buy from the US. |
Shardik | 18 Jun 2016 6:11 p.m. PST |
Postage. Postage charges from the UK to here (Australia) is significantly cheaper than postage from the US, despite the US being closer |
Tumbleweed | 18 Jun 2016 8:16 p.m. PST |
The U.S. postage rates are indeed punitive. Something beyond our personal control as dealers. It sometimes gets very silly when someone in the U.K. orders a handful of fantasy figures for $13 USD and then has to pay $22 USD for postage. I'm hip about the absurdity of it but there is little I can do. I'm certainly not prepared to sell at a loss just to keep postage rates down. We are in the business of making and selling metal figures, not clipping people on postage. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears. |
Henry Martini | 18 Jun 2016 10:15 p.m. PST |
The only figure business I've done with the US has been from the two Old Glories, both of which offer substantial discounts on very large orders, and use flat-rate USPS priority boxes. Even though the postage on these has increased lately and the the Australian dollar has declined on the exchange market I imagine (it's been some years since I last purchased) it's still an economical proposition if you order in bulk. |
nsolomon99 | 18 Jun 2016 10:53 p.m. PST |
+1 on the postage costs problem. There are lots of figures and gaming accessories I'd love to buy from US vendors but the postage is almost always crippling. UK is much cheaper. Interestingly, I also find many of the European sellers dont have an option for shipping to Australia. Tried to get some figures from a Spanish company just recently and there was no option on their WebSite for charging or shipping to anywhere other than Europe and the US. Again, spent my money with a UK Manufacturer. |
artaxerxes | 18 Jun 2016 11:08 p.m. PST |
I've ordered a fair bit from US, UK and France (and from lots of other places in the non-miniatures line) and it is what it is. Australia has a fairly generous allowance for goods bought offshore and on-line (currently AUD$1000 if I recall correctly), though typically there is agitation from the usual suspects to reduce that sharply. Shipping is what it is, and if you want it you pay for it since there isn't a lot of local manufacture out this way. I generally order reasonably sized 15mm lots in one order and so can live with it. Bigger items like large scenery pieces or (bizarrely) gaming mats, just cost too much in postage. The only time I have kicked the traces in recent years was when the Italian postal system jacked up its charges (for about the third time in two years I think) and the mailing costs for a very interesting wargames magazine that I subscribed too became higher than the subscription itself. Sadly, I let it go. |
Schogun | 19 Jun 2016 6:36 a.m. PST |
Postage is crazy for small packages from England to the US. There are so many cool figures over there I'd like to get but postage rates deter small orders. And if there's a US distributor, you end up paying for shipping twice. So it's cheaper to go direct. Sad situation for the US distributor. |
Fergal | 19 Jun 2016 3:57 p.m. PST |
Shipping sucks. When I first started shipping figs to the UK it cost $8 USD for a small flat rate box, that same box is $37 USD now, no joke. That's happened in 4 years… I just finished a kick starter that shipped MDF products and some of the rewards ended up being over 20lbs in wight, even though they fit in a large flat rate box. The lads who supported it from the UK already spent $83 USD in postage, so I'm going to eat the overages, but there are only 3 instances of this at the moment. Not much a little guy can but charge what the actual shipping is. If you are making figures and want to sell them over seas, better make sure they are unique, otherwise there are plenty of places to get French line in your home country… I think this really is a step backwards, we were on the cusp of the world shrinking before it all started to fall apart again about 5 years ago and we're back to prohibitively expensive postage and travel… |
Henry Martini | 19 Jun 2016 6:10 p.m. PST |
I'm afraid that agitation paid off, Artaxerxes: the import duty threshold will be reducing by a significant amount from July 2017… so get those duty-free big orders in while you still can. |
wrgmr1 | 19 Jun 2016 7:58 p.m. PST |
I've paid customs on figures from the US and UK. No NAFTA! However, if the order is under $75 USD cdn then it usually goes through. |
artaxerxes | 20 Jun 2016 2:27 a.m. PST |
I'd missed that HenriM – what is the new threshold? |
Wintertree | 20 Jun 2016 5:05 a.m. PST |
When I first sold TableMaster, 20 years ago, a Global Priority flat-rate envelope shipped for $5. USD Now the cheapest shipping is about $15 USD, and with slower delivery times. I'm pretty sure that most overseas customers are going to get electronic delivery, because what would you rather spend the money on -- another whole Table Pack, or having the thing snailed to you? |
Henry Martini | 20 Jun 2016 6:13 a.m. PST |
I don't know, and I doubt that even the liberal policy makers do either yet, although I think I recall hearing a figure of $400 USD bandied about at some point. I suppose there's a chance it might not happen if Labor wins on 2/7, but given the almost universal laboral coalition practical (as opposed to rhetorical) policy alignment… Oh, BTW… je ne suis pas francais. |
M1Fanboy | 20 Jun 2016 8:30 a.m. PST |
It's also a case of that it is harder for some of us to get things in the scales we play in the US. Now I know, the two main scales in the US are 15s and 28s, but.. 1/285 to 1/300: I am pretty good with CinC and GHQ 15mm Sci-Fi: Some smaller manufacturers are available (shout out to DLD and Khurasan), and I do patronize them, but GZG is the biggest around. 20mm: Are there any US 20mm manufacturers, except for one small concern I know of (Force20) anymore, especially for WWII and Modern? |
PrivateSnafu | 20 Jun 2016 4:17 p.m. PST |
We have focused on postage here in a big way. Postage is a variable but seems to me a "it is what it is" factor. All the little fees seem like they support the establishment such as Unions or Government entities that provide services the private sector could also. Reluctantly I must file a few replies along with the "I don't play Flames of War" ones. Let's talk VAT and the UK mainly. At 20% it is more than twice the amount most states charge in Sales Tax. In fact most purchases you won't even pay sales tax if you live in a different state. (Something which I believe to have hurt Mainstreet quite a bit in the world of online retailing and Amazon. Consumers are big beneficiaries but job seekers lose out. Another issue…) And then Income Tax, A lot of you I suppose are paying the 20% & 40% rate. Which is not exactly like the US but similar. Lets call it same for arguments sake. So we are back to VAT. I think we are light years away from a VAT in the US. Cost of Goods are 100% deductible here for businesses so we (retail shoppers) only pay tax on the finished sales price and that is 99.9999% of the time paid by the consumer. Does a caster have to charge VAT to a figure seller? Does the UK have anything similar to an S-Corporation or Sole proprietor? A corporation where an small companies can opt to be taxed as individuals? I suspect most successful US figure sellers operate as S corps and pay individual rates only (20-40% depending on income) and charge their customers around 7% sales tax and thats it. How do property taxes work? Are they annual like in the US? We generally do not have taxes on a home sale. Gains on business property, yes. Forgive my ignorance, its rather complicated. I'm starting to think that US sellers probably ought to give a discount to you folks. Getting some profit on less is better than zero on zero, as long as there is a positive contribution margin. Of course, that's a difficult proposition as well because our expenses are higher with fewer entitlements here. |
PrivateSnafu | 20 Jun 2016 4:39 p.m. PST |
These guys are 37 cents each US
link These guys are 50 cents each US
link |
Rudysnelson | 20 Jun 2016 10:50 p.m. PST |
I have been selling miniatures for companies since 1983. Many of the comments made here are factual and show some insights in the manufacture ring market. For me the change came when manufacturers started selling direct to the customer on a large scale rather than using distributors, or convention representatives like me. Another factor was when UK companies in particular began to sale direct to US individuals on a large scale rather than have an US importer or manufacturing representatives in the USA. A third factor is the high cost of postage when you buy overseas. I have sold some wonderful items that I got direct from Europe but postage killed the profit. A large order from Italy the product after a nice discount was $250 USD but the shipping was $420 USD, so my cost ended up being more than retail. Just an example. |
artaxerxes | 21 Jun 2016 2:01 a.m. PST |
M. Henri, si vous n'ętes pas, vous devriez ętre. |
VVV reply | 28 Jun 2016 4:00 a.m. PST |
Yep Europe has more taxes and of course more services. Lots of benefits over here for; being unemployed, being employed but not being paid much, being disabled. Health care is free at the point of delivery (have cancer, you get treatment for that for free as an example). Yes we have sole traders where you and the business are one. What profit you make is your part of your income. |
VVV reply | 29 Jun 2016 2:47 a.m. PST |
"Supposedly we live in a world of free trade." Well there you go. Thats your first problem. Countries use various 'tricks' to limit trade. As as been said, goods coming into the UK get charged VAT (on the price of the goods and the postage, and in the UK thats a 20% markup), plus perhaps a tariff, than a charge for charging you the other two charges. So its damn hard to get anything into the EU. But sending stuff to the USA seems hassle free. But any time it wants, USA can impose tariffs (Chinese steel is an example) and protect its markets. |