"Any French OOB/TO&E Out There For 1980's?" Topic

Friend is building a 1/600 French army for the late 80's, however sources have been scarce. No MicroMark list exists, and web search turns up nil. Have the Battlefront Cold War lists, but need something a bit more detailed.

Any English, or failing that, French sources on the web that would break down a Mechanized or Tank Regiment for the period?

You need the Ultra Modern Army Lists for the Challenger rules published by tabletop games. I still use this I did buy it in 1985. You may be able to find a copy online somewhere.

There is a TO&E yahoo group that may have it in their files. If not, post your query and you should either have an answer or get a link to an accurate source. I was looking for TO&E and weapon info for the French Indochina era and was stunned at the detail they had. Very active group. You can expect answers very quickly.

Cold Warrior:
What particular formations are you after? You can find reasonably reliable TOE's for wargaming in "Armies of NATO's Central Front" by David Isby and Charles Kamps Jr.(1985). As mentioned above Bruce Rea-Taylor's "Ultra Modern Army Lists and Organizations" (1985) is a good wargaming resource too. If you want specific formations post your requests here and I'll see what I can come up with. Keep in mind that organizations vary from formation to formation in the French military so a mechanized company in a tank regiment is different from a mechanized infantry company in a mechanized regiment.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

This is in French but Google translated it well enough for me to use:
armee-francaise-1989.wifeo.com

Will add the Ultra Modern Army Lists to my buy list, cannot locate any copies at the moment.

Rod,

Info on the tank regiment should be sufficient. Armies of NATO's central front is the only essential 80's Cold War reference book I have yet to own. It is going for an astronomical amount everywhere. Recent eBay auction went above $200. USD

Jekinder,

Thanks for the link, perusing it now.

Cold Warrior:
From "Armies of NATO's Central Front" by David Isby and Charles Kamps Jr. (1985) p. 120.
French Armoured Regiment:

Reg't HQ – 2 X AMX-30/30B2 MBT + 4 X AMX-10P/PC IFV.

4 X Tank Coy. ea. w.:
1 X HQ Ptn. w. 1 X AMX-30/30B2 MBT, 1 X AMX-10PC/P IFV and 1 X VAB ECH, 5 X Trucks, 4 X Jeeps and 2 X Motorcycles.
4 X Tank Ptns. ea. w. 3 X AMX-30/30B2 MBT.

1 X Mech. Inf. Coy. w.:
1 X HQ Ptn. w. 1 X AMX-10P IFV.
4 X Mech. Inf. Ptns. ea. w. 3 X AMX-10P IFV.

1 X HQ Coy. w. HQ, Communications, command and Support, River and Obstacle Crossing, Service, Recovery, Fuel and Munitions, Medical Platoons and a Scout Platoon mounted in Jeeps/VBL's.

Tank companies in the first and third DB (Division Blinde) had platoons of four MBT. By 1985 the French Army began removing the Mech. Infantry Coy. From the Reg't. but seems to have left them, at least for a time, in the 1 and 3 DB.

Total Equipment:
AMX-30 or AMX-30B2 X 54\70 MBT.
AMX-10P/PC X 21*
VAB PC X 2, VAB ECH X 10, VAB Genie(?) X 3 and VAB Ambulance X 3.
174 X Trucks, Jeeps, Cars, and Motorcycles.

* the Chart on p. 120 says there are 21 AMX-10P/PC IFV but the accompanying text says only 10 AMX-10P/PC IFV in the Reg't.
If you want the Ultra Modern Data by Bruce Rea-Taylor just holler.
Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Rod,

Many thanks! This will do nicely.

Times of changing toes, often several overlapping at the same time.

Paul,

see link below:

link

The OOB for the French army in 1989 starts on pg. 92. It is one of the most comprehensive lists I've been able to find. It is part of the entire NATO 1989 OOB. There is another link for the corresponding WARPAC OOB if you are interested.

~Lou

Early 80s never seen VAb nor 10P in tank squadrons. Trucks.

Early 80s some might still have AMXvcI for the infantry componant.

Forget VBl. Really in units much later.

Jcfrog is right about the VBL which were not introduced until 1990. So just use Peugeot Jeeps for rhe recce platoon.
Thanks Jcfrog!
Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Lou,

Have all the 1989 OOB's, they are useful, but don't break down organizations.

Recon jeep chaps were saying they had about 1/2 h life span in war!

I think many people fail to appreciate that WW3 would have been fought with 1960s era kit.

So much of the modern stuff only really turned up after the Cold War ended (and ad its first outing in Gulf War 1).

Which is why I firmly set my WW3 in 1981. No Chobham armour or Bradley's for me, oh no.

Martin,

I agree to an extent. This is why I am doing Cold War in both 1/600 and 15mm for two distinct periods, 1983 (the point of highest tension and believable outright conflict), and 1989 (the point of highest technology on both sides just prior to the collapse of the WarPac).

Amazing just how much changed in a few short years in the 80's on both sides.

Rod and Jcfrog,

Thanks. The French will be for the 1989 time frame. Mainly I just needed to see how the company and platoon organization breaks down, I have a full list of equipment within regiments, just did not know how many battalions/companies/platoons within each organization.

Rod, am assuming the mechanized list has 3-4 Mech companies and 1 tank company? Same number of platoons per?

Again my thanks for taking the time to provide the info. Both the NATO book and Ultra Modern list are on my high priority wish list. Have just about every Soviet reference one could want for the period, just lacking a bit on the NATO side.

Cold Warrior:

According to Isby and Kamps (p.121) there were two organizations in play. An older organization which was changed gradually starting in 1985 and a newer one which replaced it. The newer one had a Mechanised Infantry Reg't with 3 companies of Mech Infantry and one company of tanks with an integral Mech. Inf. Ptn. in the tank Coy.

Each Mech. Coy. had 17 AMX-10P IFV divided into one Coy. HQ of 1 X AMX-10PC, four Ptns. of 3 X AMX-10P ea. and a Ptn. of 4 X AMX-10P with 8 X Milan ATGW teams.

The Tank Coy. had two possible structures.
If AMX-30/30B2 MBT then the company had three Ptns. of 3 X AMX-30/30B2 MBT, 1 X Ptn. of 3 X AMX-10P IFV and a command section of 1 X AMX-30/30B2 MBT and 1 X AMX-10PC.

If AMX-13 tanks then 2 X Ptns. of 4 X AMX-13 tanks and 1 X Ptn. of 4 X AMX-13 tanks armed with SS-11 ATGM's and an HQ section of 1 X AMX-13 tank. There does not seem to be an integral Mech. Inf. Ptn. in the AMX-13 tank Coy.

Also there is a mortar Ptn. with 8 X VAB APC and 6 X 120mm tubes and also a jeep equiped recce Ptn. in the regimental HQ Coy.

If the older organization is used then tanks are AMX-13's and there are 2 X Coys. of Mech. Inf. in either AMX-10P IFV's or in AMX-VCI and 2 X tank Coys. ea. w. 13 AMX-13 (4 per Coy. w. SS-11 ATGM's).

Finally, I have been using the word 'company' for simplicity's sake but these are really squadrons (escadrons).

Note that the Mech. Inf. Coys. in the armoured reg'ts lack the anti-tank ptn. of four vehicles and 8 Milan teams.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Rod,

Thanks once again!

Found a copy of the "Ultra Modern Army Lists and Organisations" over on AbeBooks (good site imo for tough-to-find books). It is a second edition (1982) copy though, so it might not be quite what you are looking for (late 80's).
link

Also found "Armies of NATO's Central Front", but it is rather expensive:
link