"Berthier as Chief of Staff - Part 94" Topic

I've a couple of questions relating to the Berthier as chief of staff. Please, for the purpose of this excercise, let's not go down the "Berthier was only a chief clerk" rabbit hole, that point has been discussed ad infinitum and for me, ad nauseam.

The role of chief of staff is evolving and we needed view Berthier as something other than von Moltke the Elder in Napoleonic uniform – that would also be true of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Napoleonic general staffs are nothing like those of the Prussian General Staff of the mid 19thC.

My question arises from reading Elting: at the start of his chapter in "Swords Around the Throne" on the staff says: "The Napoleonic staff – indeed, much of modern staff organisation – came from Pierre-Joseph Bourcet's (1700-1780) work on staff organisation and functioning."

Questions:

How does this earlier work influence Berthier's instructions of 1796 for the Army of the Alps?

Are they any decent analysis of Bourcet's theories on staff organisation?

Are these points covered in "Chief of Staff, Vol. 1: The Principal Officers Behind History's Great Commanders, Napoleonic Wars to World War I" by David T. Zabecki, a book I've only just come across and not had a chance to read. Supplementary question is Zabecki worth reading? I've learned a good review on Amazon doesn't always equal a good book (case in point "Last Chance of Victory").

I would say, "let's try and be civil" but since that's not excepted on the Napoleonic Boards, ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ

let's try and be civil

I think you scared everyone off. Not a single reply….

- Ix

138squadronRaf………..I picked up his memoires at the Waterloo event ..your comments have triggered some interesting points.

regards
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com

from an excellent article of Eman Vovsi

called :

Paul Thiébault and the Development of the French Staff system from Ancien Régime to the Revolution

""My first efforts," – further explained Thiébault, – "were dedicated to organizing the work of the staff, which Solignac did only in bits and pieces. This effort was guided by notes, which I had taken while serving at l'Armée du Rhin and which, seven or eight months afterwards helped me in writing my Manuel des Adjudan[t]s généraux."[3] But his work, however, was not composed from scratch as France had a long tradition of staff organization.
In the first part of his Manuel des Adjudans généraux Thiébault provides the reader with a brief history of the French staff system, from Francis I (1515-47) to Louis XIV (1643-1715).[4] He, however, omits the era of Louis XV (1715-74), which brought the first professional title on this subject, Principes de la Guerre de Montagnes, composed by Pierre-Joseph de Bourcet (1700-80). Since 1764, while director of fortifications of the Province de Dauphiné, de Bourcet took a leading role to better prepare French officers, so humiliated by the disastrous outcome of Seven Year's War (1756-63).[5] In 1766, de Bourcet was put in command of a group of twenty-one officers whose task was to carry out the topographical survey of the French kingdom (this work, however, ceased in 1771 for financial reasons and was abolished in 1776).[6]
In his seminal treatise, which he composed around 1775, de Bourcet analyzed operations of an army in mountainous terrain (either defensive or offensive), which included preparation for the campaign, marches, communications and the like. Because such terrain would compel an army to operate in isolated, compartmented areas, he recognized the importance of independent formations acting on their own. What was revolutionary in his Principes.., is that de Bourcet proposed the basic concepts for an army organized in a well-articulated divisional-like structure, with its own staff, each headed by a maréchal général-de- logis (quartermaster-general).
This office (originally called maréchal-des-logis d'armée) first appeared during the era of Louis XIII (1610-43) and had the primary responsibility for the lodging the troops, provision of supplies and organizing marches. Chapter VIII in Book Two of de Bourcet's work discusses the functions of the maréchal général-des-logis who was supposed to assist his superior commander "by maintaining correspondence with War Ministry, ambassadors and different armies' general officers; provide an accurate report on military substance and munitions, upkeep with reparations of troops, their recruitment and discipline". This officer should also prepare "orders of general and particular movements of troops, which he supposed to present in writing, [direct] reconnaissance personally or via his assistants (aides) and every day bring about the information regarding the enemy and his position; also submit reports on deserters and spies, on which he should inform military department…"[7] Further, the maréchal général-des-logis was obligated to prepare "orders of battle and marches", "determine intervals between the billeting" and organize "reconnoitering of villages, towns or hamlets in terms of estimate of the quantities of the forage needed". To achieve these and other tasks, a company of guides (compagnie des guides) was placed under his direct command. This company, to be composed of no less than fifty mounted and twenty guides on foot under command of a captain, was supposed to work with the local population and be always at-ready.[8]
In de Bourcet's plan, the maréchal général-des-logis also supervised the work of officers in charge of geographical matters (ingénieurs-géographes), who were supposed to report the "terrain findings to the commander in chief and the Secretary of the War Department"
At least four assistants (aides) should be assigned to the bureau of maréchal général des logis: one in charge of orders of marches and its instructions; a second to supervised the commencement of marches; while two others were placed in charge of a reconnaissance. [9] De Bourcet concludes this short chapter of his Principes.., on the merit of such officers who should be selected based on experience and great deal of zeal – they should not afraid of hard work and vigorous and brave under fire.
Although the army staff organization outlined by de Bourcet did not became official doctrine for the French royal forces, the expeditionary corps under the orders of Lieutenant-général, J.-B.-D. de Vimeur, comte de Rochambeau, which landed at Newport, Rhode Island, on 11 July 1780, did have a staff organization.[10] This included:
- Maréchal-de-camp F.-J. de Beauvoir, marquis de Chastellux
- Brigadier des armées du roi (branch of service) C.-G. duc de Choisy
- Maréchal général-des-logis P.-F. de Béville and Lieutenant-colonel F.-A.-L. Thibault de Menonville (on 12 January 1781, a twenty-seven year old captain, L.-A. Berthier, was assigned to staff as a supernumerary aide-maréchal général-des-logis)
- Chief of artillery and equipages Colonel F.-M. comte d'Aboville assisted by captain La Chèze
- Chief of engineers Colonel J.-N. Desandrouins with four attached engineer officers and captain Duchesnoy, an ingénieur géographe
- Intendant-general Colonel B.-J. de Tarlé
- Commissary officer C. Blanchard
- Superintendent of hospitals M. de Mars
- Chef physician J.-F. Coste and chef surgeon Robillard
- Chaplain l'abbe de Glenson
- Staff also included fifteen senior officers of infantry and cavalry and number of aides-de-camp, including members of the most ancient and illustrious French families, such as marquis de Vauban, chevalier de Lameth and others.
Although the Rochambeau's staff did not see much action before the siege of Yorktown it, nonetheless, contributed to the final victory. Thus, by the last week of April 1781, maréchal général-des-logis de Béville had mapped out a route from Rhode Island to the American headquarters in New Windsor. Further in October, a senior officer on staff duty, Brigadier de Choisy was sent to take command of Allied troops (Weedon's Virginia militiamen and Lauzon's Legion) at Gloucester in anticipation of a disagreement between two commanders.[11] And, no doubt, the staff officers of the engineers and artillery directed the trench work at Yorktown until the British finally surrendered.
In the last decades of the Ancien Régime the staff system remained in its previous form until after it was given further push by a War Minister, maréchal de France P.-H. marquis de Ségur (1724-1801). In 1783 he formed a staff corps of senior officers, composed of aides-maréchaux généraux-des-logis carrying the brevet of a colonel or lieutenant-colonel; each of them was assisted by a captain. At the moment of formation, this staff included 19 colonels, 24 lieutenant-colonels or majors and 25 captains. These officers were supposed to be versed in various military disciplines, such as topography, history, geography; they also should possess the art of commentaries on mémoires, know how to perform a reconnaissance and other subjects related to military matters. The director of this corps, marquis d'Aguesseau, prepared in 1787 a memorandum where he advised the government of placing staff officers (officers de l'État-major) on the permanent footing, especially taking under consideration the recent involvement of France in the American War of Independence. It should, continued d'Aguesseau, serve the country both in the peace and wartime, and became a training school for line officers and high nobles desired to pursue a military career.[12] The corps included nearly a dozen officers who served with Rochambeau in America, including Colonel de Tarlé and Lieutenant-colonel Langlouis du Bouchet.[13] It, however, was left for the Révolution to create real change, which saw the beginning of a true system in the staff organization.
"

also of interest

link

I have found Vachee to be too much Napoleon and definitely too much Jomini for a valid evaluation of Berthier as chief of staff.

Any comparison between Berthier and von Moltke has to take into consideration that von Moltke was for all intents and purposes the Prussian commander, even though his title was chief of the general staff. While in theory the Prussian king was the army commander, the de facto situation was that von Moltke was.

Bourcet's work, in which he served as an army chief of staff, especially for de Broglie in Germany beginning in 1760, influenced Berthier for at least two reasons: First, he organized and ran the French staff college after the Seven Years' War until it was abolished in the early 1770s. He did valuable work in staff organization and funcitioning which was continued with de Segur's Corps d'Etat-Major which was formed in 1783 and to which Berthier belonged.

Berthier's knowledge thus gained was used when he organized and ran the general staffs of the Armee des Alpes and the Armee d'Italie in 1795 and 1796 respectfully. The instructions he wrote and used were later expanded by Thiebault in his famous staff manual in 1800. This document was translated into both German and English for foreign use.

I have found the first volume of Chiefs of Staff by Zabecki just about worthless and of little or no help for this period. In short, I was underwhelmed.