"15mm AB, Eureka and CGN Napoleonics Comparison " Topic

Of possible interest?

See here
link

Amicalement
Armand

AB foot figures are 70 cents in the US, I have no idea where the $1.05 USD comes from. AB does cover the 1816 Brits and the French are covered in the 1812 range. The Eureka figures are slightly cheaper.

Rob
Eureka miniatures usa

The blogger may be from down under, so AUS$ perhaps? He mentions attending a convention in Brisbane elsewhere on his blog.

Or ---- you could just purchase the great Blue Moon figures that are only 32 cents (with army card discount) per figure!!
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Nice comparison photos. I have AB and CGM, too. I like both product lines very much and will buy more eventually. (Russ, I would also love to buy some Blue Moon…just haven't gotten to it yet, but I will.)

The AB figures are superb. Very realistic human proportions. They are definitely my favorites despite the slightly higher price. I really like being able to buy individual figures instead of bags.

The CGM figures do have a rather odd posture, a little bow-legged and slightly hunched over perhaps, but I'm starting to walk just like that after 60 years. The CGM look pretty good all painted and based.

By the way, this TMP topic title has a typo. It's CGM not CGN. But the blog has the same typo, so it was probably cut-and-pasted.

Although I think all three of the figures in the post are good figures, unlike the blogger I quite like the CGM pose.
The other two look like they are just strolling forward or even standing still. The CGM figures actually looks like he is advancing into combat and harms way.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

in case you look at the oblique shot – the Prussian figure is advancing nicely as well.

The three makers that I have the most of are CGM, AB and Blue Moon. They are all great figures. CGM are my personal favorite and the owner (Dermot) is a great guy to deal with.

Now if CGM are Spanish, Dermot sounds more like one of my countrymen!

I know nothing about 15mm, but was very impressed with the tiny order I placed with Fighting 15s in UK. Quick delivery and superb figures. But how do folk work at that scale…and produce such results?

I quite like the pose above. Rather than breaking wind (brilliant suggestion though) it rather suggests to me that the musket is actually a damned heavy thing to carry, he is on uneven ground and maybe facing incoming too!

I do accept it might not work as well en masse……not sure

AB are a country mile ahead of anything else IMHO. YMMV. Figures take so long to paint and since you don't need to buy them all at once the biggest real single cost is the value you put on your time not the price of the castings. If you want to buy hundreds at a time to add to the lead pile then price may have a bearing.

Thank God someone else has said that. I have taken real flak

TMP link

for being almost insulting, by suggesting that the massive time spent on painting and prepping such miniatures means you should not skimp on quality, in the figures themselves. What is your time worth by comparison?

Thankyou…you have made my evening, as I was beginning to think I was missing the point

YMMV? Hmmmmm…..You Make My…..V? Nope…..

Deadhead, yup you took flak. You and I definitely agree that it's a hobby and why buy second best and have the second best hobby when you could have had the vey best hobby, so to speak.

YMMV – sorry – 'your mileage may vary'.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Old Glory cast AB for some years and while I think there are some real gems in the line, there was also plenty of "just alright". While I had access to both AB and Old Glory 80% of my vast collection was --by choice, Old Glory

I don't think it is quite time for all the other companies who cast 15/18mm Napoleonics to just fold up shop yet.

Also, while for some, money may not matter, for many others its a very big deal and MUST be a part of the equation.

Also, the amount of figures needed could come into play -- while some may spend weeks meticulously painting a handful of figures, others demand thousands of figures on the table.

To each there own. wanting and supporting any figure line is all good and well, but others have oponions as to what is "second best" and liked. I honestly do prefer the CGM figure in the photos above, The Eureka Frenchman trounces the AB Prussian and "is a country mile ahead of it" IMHO anyway. Is that wrong?

Even in fine arts, there are hosts of styles that people either like or don't like. My wife and I have dealt in antiques for years, tastes vary by leagues, who am I to tell someone that there milk bottle collection is not a good hobby because it is not expensive enough?

Deadhead and Timmons uk, you do seem to promote the concept that everyone must "spend a lot of money to get the best" -- and on what you consider the best? Or they risk not really enjoying THEIR hobby?
By the way, the concept that money "buys the best" has proven to not be so true in many markets. My Jaguar XJ6 was a total piece of junk and the worst car I ever had -- a virtual money pit!!!



Regards
Russ Dunaway

I recently got into 15/18mm Napoleonics from 28mm. I had painted almost 3000 28mm figures when I decided to pack it in and sell them. With the proceeds I was able to buy even a bigger 18mm AB army. AB are nice figures and they paint up nicely. I had some Old Gory and Blue Moon also nice but in a different category I think.

I can say that looking back at painting 3000 28mm Napoleonics, my only regret was not buying the best figures that I could. In retrospect, I should never have done any plastics, they are just not the same and for wargaming they are just not as robust. The dozen or so plastics units I painted were ultimately more difficult to get rid of.

When I say the best 28 mm, I would include Calpe, Front Rank and Perry (I prefer the first 2 as Perry's are very hard to clean up but no one can touch them for range). There are other manufacturers with small lines that are quite nice, but these are the major suppliers in my mind of premier figures. Early on I bought some Old Glory and I was not impressed with the sculpts, Elite had very similar and some what odd poses, Eagle figures were varied in quality and I found that Foundry were a little small as well as somewhat breakable, lost a lot of bayonets and shako plumes.

So I have to agree if you are going to put time in painting the figures it is well worth spending the money.

I do appreciate though that for some cost is an issue, so having less expensive figures available is great.

The argument though that less as expensive figures are as good is somewhat dubious.

I do realize that "good" is subjective, but at the same time I believe if someone can charge twice as much for a figure and still maintain excellent sales it is suggestive that those figures maybe a little better.

John

By the way for several years I kept a series III Jag XJ6 going, it also cost me hundreds of dollars per month, but I loved that car, when it was on the highway going full throttle there was really no other feeling like it. Although I suppose one could question the intelligence of going 100mph in a 20 year old jag! And then came along Cash for Clunkers, and I came to my senses.

John,
once again, everything said is JUST oponions. Been in many houses that I found the decor, art on the walls, statues, decorating, etc just terrible, while the occupants obviously took great joy and pride in where they lived. Because I had other tastes did not negate their tastes.
You mention Elite, that is my favorite line of 25 mm Nappies, You did not like the poses, that is the very thing I admire about the figures -- so indeed, "good is very subjective",
I don't know what the sells numbers for AB are' as you seem to --- but I certainly know from the inside these numbers--
=== Old Glory has sold literally millions of Nappies through the years and now the ever expanding Blue Moon range is moving the figures out at an alarming rate. These ranges must have an appeal to someone, for whatever reason. When Old Glory was casting AB some years back, for every AB figure we cast, we did hundreds of OG, estimate based on "casting days".

I am aware tha all figure lines have their dedicated followers and I am certainly certainly not slamming AB as it may seem, in fact I have praised some of their figures as well as other competitors in my above posts-' just will argue that tastes and needs vary part person.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

"Ford trucks are better then Chevy, Honda cars are better the Kia, this bank is better then this bank" yaddy yaddy ya da.
EVERYONE HAS THE "BEST" !!!

Regards
Russ Dunaway

To be fair Deadhead, whilst I would agree that for most of us cost of castings might be a smaller factor than other investments in producing painted armies, it was a strange thread to bring it up on. The 'flak' you received was no stronger than some of your statements.

One box of Airfix/Caesar, etc. is generally like another and when there have been issues with poor moulding I've found it's not been linked to the cost of the box.

I would agree that when it comes to different metal manufacturers in particular and the trade off with modern plastics, cost might not be as big a deal as people think, if they take the long view.

Although I'm with Russ in thinking that the Eureka is 'nicer' than the AB in the picture, I'd probably prefer the AB to paint.

After some more thought I would like to add. If you look at the costs comparison between AB at 70 cents and Blue Moon at 32 cents (in the U.S) that is a significant difference --- for something that- in the end -- the final over all look of "quality" is fully dependent upon how much skill, time, and effort the consumer devotes to the figures.
A factor that is so often over looked and not considered in these type of conversations. Your little army looks as good as YOUR SKILLS allow. In the end you are going to seas of blue, white, red, green on the top of your table and it could cost you double?

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Not trying to question the quality of your miniatures Ross, my ACW Union army is from Blue Moon and they were very nice figures.

As an aside I was planning to make a Blue Moon Napoleonic purchase of a British rocket team which I though was on their lists but maybe it was another manufacturer with which I was confusing Old Glory.

John

John, I fully understand. I am certainly not suggesting that people should only use OG product, in fact I am arguing the exact opposite --- dont get me wrong, of course I will promote my own figure line, also you will notice that I do it under my real name and do not masquerade as a consumer.. still, I am a consumer also and own countless figures from various companies -- all very good figures.
I am just attempting to point out the huge differences in tastes, I hate the Dixon ACW line, yet I have seen 1000s of those on gaming tables so I must believe that line has a following of people who really like them -- who am I to say they are wrong to like those figures? We should be thankful we have this choice available to us in the market today.
I have no problem when someone says "I like figure X range and figure Z range --- I do tend to rise up when people seem to disparage others for their figures choices -- probably the civil libertarian in me is all?

On another topic, I also loved my Jaguar – ???? -when it was running properly – ??? I ended that love affair when I was about 700 miles from home and the crossover tank between the two gas tanks came loose and my gas all ran out --- then to add insult to injury all the local mechanics in the small mid western town just stared at the problem and we're really stumped. I told myself, "when and if I get this thing home, this is it"!!!! A promiseI faithfully fullfilled.

Good luck and happy gaming.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Yes the crossover tank in the big jag, I remember it well. It was the straw that broke the camel's bank. I actually used a specialist jag mechanic who knew what he was doing. One tank developed a leak, the tank was pulled out and repaired. When it was reinstalled the smell of gas never went away, we could never discover where the leak was, clearly in the complex mechanism that linked the two tanks and then the other tank started to leak and that was it. Off to the clunkers, she went.

I still think about that car, it was more fun to drive then any I have had before or since and I have had some nice cars.

Anyway good luck to you it has been fun thinking about the Big Jag and having another look at the photos of her.

John

I had a specialist Jaguar mechanic also ??? At home though -- not in the middle of know where in a town with 100 people in it !!!! LOL. In the states the hood ornaments are sought after and twice I came out to find mine virtually ripped from the hood !! I also had trouble with the wire wheel spokes coming up and puncturing my tubes constantly -- seemed to never be able to be resolved? I will admit though that I loved that car -- my wife totally and completely loathed and hated that car with all her being, closest we came to seperation in 43 years of marraige ---- imagine that!! A car and not another woman! LOL --- about a year after we got rid of it we were shocked at how much money had piled up in the checking account!

Russ

I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee (80K miles) from the US (OK I know it was built in Germany, with a German engine and a company now owned by Fiat)

I love it. It is nothing as reliable as my Shogun (a big Jap SUV that I ran for ten years and 110K miles)…I think our rebel colonists still call it a Pajero or Montero LWB….) but I simply love it.

I also love how these threads develop. Totally off subject. (Why not?)

The one thing you must admit…all three figures would work together perfectly well, en masse

Deadhead, I have seen only a few figures through the years that I actually thought were just horrible -- but they are out there. My wife drives a 2000 jeep Cherokee that has 350'000 miles on it with the only major repair a new tranny at about 200,000 miles. In the mountains where we live it comes in very handy.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Getting back to the three companies I have bought from all three Deadhead FYI Dermot is an Irishman in exile, and agent to deal with, I have also had great service from Rob, Nick and Ian when buying ABs and Eureka, in my Honest opinion each have there strength and weaknesses, (I love Eureka's 1815 Brits) AB overall are best for consistency and sculpture in my opinion and make up 90% of my Armies

I am encouraged +++. Never mind the Jeep Grand Ch and the UK cost of replacing it now (ouch).

I thought Dermot might not be from Wales

I get the impression that all these 15/18mm figures are well done and far better proportioned than many a 28mm casting. If anything, 1/72 from Germany are really setting the standard.

28mm is best for folk like me who just leave their figures on a shelf (indeed, lately, in the attic). Easier to paint the detail, but can be so badly proportioned, even if casting is of superb finished quality.

Another vote for AB's. I use them wherever their range covers. I was doing up Confed of the Rhine in the early 90's and the AB range didn't cover them at that point so I went with OG. But took one look at what was supposed to pass for horses in the OG cavalry packs and threw most in the bin, using the remainder as dead horses for casualty markers. I bought a heap of AB horses as "remounts" and proper horses totally transformed the OG cavalry.

I now have multi-thousand figure armies for every nation bar the Spanish and Swedes and am now working through adding the "early" period for each army as well, all with AB's.

I'm in the school of going with the best you can afford and recognising that the real cost is in the painting. My observation would be that you only pay for the figures once and then you have them for life, so buy the best you can possibly afford, you'll be looking at them fight across your battlefields for years.

PS. I never bought a Jag, they were hopeless in Australian conditions but I did own a couple of Rover's in my early years when cars were very important. Loved 'em but they were expensive to keep running. Funnily enough, I now too have a Jeep Grand Cherokee, the Diesel model with the German motor, transmission and diffs. Tows like an elephant, its wonderful. Quite possibly the best car I've ever bought.

It beats me why anyone would choose anything other than AB if the they want little tin men (and even more so horses) to look like the real thing. They are superior in every respect to all other manufacturers of 18mm- and most of 28mm figures.

I have all of the figures in the OP photograph and can say without hesitation that seen for real the AB figure is better proportioned, better detailed (esp facially) and better animated than the others- by far. For a good demonstration- just get a few AB French Fusiliers and a few Grenadiers- the Fusiliers look like really young guys, but the Grenadiers look much older- how Barton achieves that with 18mm masters beats me.

I got Eureka and CGM to cover a need for some Westphalians once. They have been- how can I put it kindly- "outliers" in my collection since. The Eureka figures have a menswear shop mannequin quality to their proportion and animation, and I can only assume that the GCM are based on dollies originally created for a never released Planet of the apes range.

Set a few real samples up and the difference is unmistakable.

Hey thanks for the post Tango.

So a little background for the original post:

I moved from Adler 6mm to 15mm after catching the bug I tried to avoid for so long – to paint well with reasonably accurate uniforms. So selling all my 6mm and replacing with 15mm. Friends told me AB were best so priced them up. Also priced up almost all other suppliers and all the US suppliers were way out of price due to their insane postage to Australia.

Yes I did decide that time and effort spent on painting them and the smaller less frequent purchases would justify the expense so I agree with some of you there.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

Yes indeed, and my favourite line is AB miniatures as well, they look already great when unpainted.
I don't only admire the sculpting skill of AB but also his great research he put into his figures.

No mention my friend!. (smile)

Amicalement
ARmand

I am a 1/72 fan, and think a lot of the available figures knock for six every metal range out there.

But having said that, i love what Mr B does with his AB range, and my metal Naps are mostly his figures. They are truly outstanding figures, with character in spades. I know cost can be an issue (says he buying plastic figures) but i truly think they are worth it. His command figures are absolutely superb, and a lot of his "foot sloggers" are just as interesting.

Have fun

OK,OK – I admit it !! All other miniatures are crap and pale in the light of the omnipotent AB figures!! All is a waste of time -- these things are not only good, THERE GREAT !! They move, they walk, they talk, BY GOD --they even paint themselves !!! As they advance across little miniature battlefields -- any non AB figure will recoil in terror and fear, fleeing for their very existence --the only fortunate survivors being the lucky ones who have the AB bayonets bend and break against their tiny routing backs!!!

Now that I really ponder this -- they should be $2.00 USD a piece!! -- NO $3.00 USD -- HELL NO!! $10.00 USD A piece !! After all, what is the true price of "quality" and a few extra $1,000 USDs per collection for the average guy???

All people, anyone, anywhere are utter fools to waste their cash on anything but -- NO --not fools -- IMBECILES -- for not doing so!! The only real drawback I would guess is they are not made in that magical kingdom of Nottingham !! All of the millions of 15/18mm Napoleonic figures that have been sold by various firms were obviously purchased by fools, rift raft, and poltroons!!
It matters little that the vast majority of us are not really after, or have the ability to produce impeccable museum quality painted figures, nor really want them-- as stated above --they almost paint themselves!!!

I look at the three figures above, and I thought my eyes were seeing three small figurines, pretty much the same, a matter of taste for each individual --BUT NO !!! I now no how sadly mistaken I truly was.
Alas, it is over, I shall fold shop and now dismiss myself -- I advice all other caster and designers to do the same -- resistance is futile --other opinions and considerations MUST BE cast aside -- the throngs have spoken!!
I fear all is lost ??????????????

A sorry Regards -- and tearful goodbye.
Russ Dunaway

I would love to try some Blue Moon as they were on my list to try but when shipping is minimum $59.95 USD USD it just does not work out.
link

Does anyone have a few spare they can send me for a few dollars? I trying would like to add them in to my trial period.

WarDepotDavid;

Please contact Teresa at Old Glory 25's and let her know what you want in the way of figures. She and Connie will get back to you with the actually shipping cost. Due to the vast variety of items that Old Glory sells, shipping cost outside of the US tend to always come up high. Customers who regularly buy from us, know that we will adjust the shipping charges to actually cost and will give them that information even before they order.

Added note – I should have checked the link first, the prices quoted are for medium flat rate boxes, and if you want Blue Moon 15's, and are talking a medium flat rate box, that's a lot of miniatures.

Shipping cost are now an issue for game companies, either they take their prices up on the miniatures to appear to offer low cost shipping or the customer must face the cost of shipping. With so many people now turning to online shipping, most countries have upped their postage cost as well as changed weight limits to also increase postage cost.

When I was a student I was buying OG, 20 years later I buy AB for all of the reasons shared by many so far.

I will add this (and I hope manufactures will find my opinion of possible interest): one of the reason I enjoy to collect AB is because of the buying experience. Clean website, EVERY code paired with a GOOD picture of the figure you are going to get and sure, I don't need to buy mysterious packs… I pick and choose what I want without getting lost in math.

Blue moon is trying to help the same way but the pictures are bad, the quality inconsistent and they overpromised the availability of their range.

I bought some CGM because I like the charging options for cavalry (some AB units are available only at rest pose). Nice.

Now to OG. I buy some units charging because they really give me the idea of the assault. I love their ACW skirmishing. Yes the bayonets look like samurai's swords, but who cares. The problem I have with OG is that in 2016 I have no time to investigate what I will find in the pack. I can't believe that in 2016 and after decades of business prospective clients still need to send emails or browse TMP or the web to find out what could possibly be in a bag. Take some decent pictures of the content and pair them with codes, please. All I can say is that I would ordered several hundreds in the last years if only i could have been aware of the content.

Through the years I read on TMP or dedicated forums about the same problem and always found the same answer from the business owners: "do you know how much time it takes to take the pictures of every code or pay someone to paint them for promotional purposes?" … hmm, yes I do and that's why, beside the beauty of the casting, my money goes to AB. My 2 cents.

There is an ongoing argument between

Buy the best

Overpriced

This isn't quite the right argument

The correct argument is

What is the cost as a proportion of the total cost of ownership ?

For wargames figures the total cost includes

• Purchase cost of figures including postage, discounts, bag of figures not exactly meeting battalion size, etc.
• painting cost including paints, your time, tools etc.
• storage costs, boxes, magnet sheet, whatever

Clearly you will have your own numbers for most of the above, and a budget to work within. The budget part is different for different people.

It's not exactly the same as owning a piece of classic British scrap metal (I'm British so I know the downsides of some of those vehicles)

There is a fun factor issue in the painting and that depends how into painting you are. If you love painting, there is indeed something special about the AB figures that I can't put my finger on.

John

Robert kappa, Thank you so much for your early support of Old Glory product, it helped launch us into one of the most successful historical miniature miniature companies in many scales. I regret you no longer like the product.
Also, as far as "over promised availability" of Blue moon range -- Yes, we have fallen behind -- but in the last 5 years we have out produced any one that comes to mind and it will continue as I do not see the world ending--how long has AB been around? 20 some years?
I would also point out, that there must be a sizable amount of people who are obviously not swayed by social media (such as this)and have the ability to make their own decisions based on what their needs, requirements, tastes are -- I base that on the thousands upon thousands of Blue Moon figures that pour out of this factory everyday --someone must want them for whatever reason -- that's not an opinion, that a fact.

Whats really odd about this conversation to me, is I never really entered to slam or support one line over another -- just to point out there are alternatives, and then that there are various opinions on value and all oponions are valid? Then from around the world --a small army of AB fan Boys (OK,it was 4or5 guys) swarmed out to defend their figure choice -- seems a bit insecure to me? Also, as stated above, I like the CGM figure the best, then the Eureka figure --Just an opinion?

Either way, I bid this silly conversation farewell.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Maybe a quick fix might be to list all the figures in each pack. I was looking yesterday and was concerned about the number of officers and flag bearers in command packs. As you know brits need 2 per battalion and some of the allied battalions dont use any so I was concerned about not having enough for some and left over figures for others.

=> Miniatureships. I will do that and see if I can get a small order to test out.

This is a little bit like the makers of cheap car Brand X feeling hard done by because people really admire Mercedes. A Brand X is indeed a viable alternative to a Mercedes in a rather superficial sense (4 wheels, seats), but they aren't really in the same class of product, so there's no real reason for anyone to feel hard done by.

You could scale up an AB figure to 54mm or even 75mm and it would look great. Scale up most of the other 18mm figures available from any manufacturer and they would look grotesque. The Brand X figures obviously sell just as the Brand X cars do, and that's fine of course- but why not save up and get some miniature Mercs if you can?…..

Either way, I bid this silly conversation farewell.

Gazzola? Is that you?

Just painted up the Eureka French

link

Russ, I do still like the product and I occasionally buy some packs but I would buy more if… (see rant above).

There are a lot of factors that go into a person's miniature collection.

First, is what that person want's to accomplish. If they want to accomplish putting together a very large army, and maybe two different forces, then they might consider where they will get the most ban for their buck.

Other considerations might include do they want the whole army to be from the same manufacture or not? Personally, I like to use a variety of companies as it makes knowing which figures belong to which unit. There is also going to be the consideration of what that person likes in style. There are those that like Minifigs because they are all cookie cutter.

The person might also have to consider the economics and personal situation, as their goals may be governed by budgets, other desires or goals or limitations.

Personally, we all have our likes and dislikes, and depending on situation in life, will determine what we buy and why.

Personally, I wanted to get into Napoleonics some 20 plus years ago, but was put off by two things, the rules people were using at the time and the only figures had I bought were a pack of British, either Battle Honors or AB, and for the cost I was not impressed with their style or durability.

Miniature Ships
Twenty odd years ago the figures may have been BH – and the British were less than stellar (the French are very good but the moulds may be showing their age by now). But if you were to buy a set of AB British then they are simply superb. Good proportions and correct detailing, along with regulation poses.

I bought a pack of Blue Moon British Line and they were nice enough figures – but the marching men had their right arm swinging out (according to regulations it should be held by the side). This wouldn't have been a problem but your mould couldn't handle the undercut and every single figure had a damn great piece of rough metal linking the right arm to the cartridge box. And there were only three or four variants in the bag. And about a third of the figures had an issue about a third of the way down the barrel.

So for their cost (about 57 cents per figure in the UK) I wasn't impressed with their style or durability.

And when are Blue Moon going to find someone who can sculpt a horse properly?

But your artillery and equipment are really nice.

I have no shame to admit, that AB figures are much better than my own.
AB quality is the goal to achieve.

Don't go Russ.

I love Blue Moon figures!

I have a ton of ACW, SYW and Napoleonic. As do the rest of our wargames club.

The range is breath-taking and will obviously take time to complete (if ever!).

I have collected 15 / 18 mm figures for about 20 years and I don't regret buying 'cheaper' figures. I regret buying poor models.

Blue moon match my painting technique and ability very well; I have neither the time nor the money to invest in AB or other very finely detailed and expensive ranges.

We have an Old Glory army card and bulk buy as a club. We usually manage to pick them up when a member is in the US too.

I have some AB figures – nice for dioramas and maybe individual wargames command figures. However, massed units I go for Blue moon every time!