Rudysnelson | 31 May 2016 3:14 p.m. PST |
I have seen hard selling by some kickstarters which reminds me of the aggressive attitude of old times door to door salesmen and now telemarketers. Recently I saw the ultimate in pressure sales. At a recent convention a guy ran a demonstration for some players. I thought it was unusual when he discouraged new younger players and focused on older players. At the end of the game, he began his recap of the game and at the end, he asked if the players enjoyed it. Most said that it was fun. He then said , "Great to hear, now will you sign up for my kickstarter?" The players vanished like a puff of smoke. So is this hard sale tactic normal of doing a demo and asking for investors? Thanks for the info. It was a point of several discussions later that day. |
KenofYork | 31 May 2016 4:48 p.m. PST |
I have voiced several times my inability to understand kick starter. In the long run I suspect it will cause a lot of bad things to happen to a lot of good folks. In the short run it is another in a series of pop culture items that are beyond my mental capacity to grasp. Like exposed boxers. One thing is that it has ejected me from the ranks of actual "gamers". I can not keep up with the deluge of new products and have decided to only play stuff published around a decade ago or longer. ( although I just printed out the entire 9th age rules) The cycle of buy-shelve-buy got old fast. |
kallman | 31 May 2016 5:01 p.m. PST |
I funded one Kickstarter which was the first Reaper Bones. It was great but in the end I gave away most or all of the figures because I just did not have the time paint all it. I have considered other Kickstarters but have always decided in the end that the supposed savings really does not pan out. If the kickstarter is successful the figures will eventually go into regular production, in theory. And if not then I am not out anything either way. I am sure the kickstarters that have been done well have been good for the manufacturer and for the persons who got in at the beginning. Good for them. |
PzGeneral | 31 May 2016 6:12 p.m. PST |
What a lot of people don't realize about Kickstarter is that it isn't a "pre-sale". You are an investor. Someone has approached you (the KS Creator) and has pitched his or her product and is asking you to invest. Instead of getting a share of the company, you receive goods. Instead of getting a dividend on your investment, you receive goods of greater value that what your investment would normally buy on the open market. BUT, just like investing in the business world, there are risks. Some Kickstarters don't meeting funding requirements, and no money is taken. Some Kickstarters are wildly successful (Reaper Bones). Some fund but then fall apart (All Quiet / Martian Front) and some fund, but then the promised product never materializes (Up Front). And those are the Kickstarters that make people cry "Foul and Scam". When you invest in a Kickstarter project, you become an investor in a business. And just like in the business world, the smart investor should do research into the company they are looking to back…….and just like in the business world, if that Kickstarter seems just a little too good, too sweet to believe…it just may be. I personally have invested in four KS Projects. I backed the Second Edition Song of Blades and Heroes along with the "Fungi Fighter" miniatures. That project came in as promised, right on time. I invested in "All Quiet / Martian Front". That project was delayed. They DID delivered most of the promised goods. Then Alien Dungeon went bankrupt….the rest of the merchandise will probably never be seen. BUT, I did receive goods worth more than my investment amount. Just not everything promised. I've also invested in two other projects. Both recently enough that the delivery dates haven't arrived yet. But I did my research and both are from established companies….I have confidence that they will deliver. Dave |
79thPA | 31 May 2016 6:43 p.m. PST |
I walk away from hard pressure sales, especially if they involve toy soldiers. My brother has backed a few KS projects and is satisfied with the results. I haven't seen anything that I am not willing to wait for to go into regular production and, if it doesn't go into production, no loss to me, and I've got plenty of other things to do. |
zippyfusenet | 31 May 2016 7:22 p.m. PST |
I am also repelled by high pressure sales. However. I happen to be already invested in this particular kickstarter, the one Rudy refers to, for a substantial amount. At Nashcon I persuaded the 'salesman' to stage a demo game for me, when he hadn't planned on another session. I felt no sales pressure from him. He took careful notes of my comments on the current, playtest, version of the rules. It was a very positive experience for me, one of the high points of the con. I think I understand the risks of Kickstarter. I tend to buy into projects when I really want to see the product produced. I expect I'll get burned some time, but it hasn't happened yet. I've backed one project that was completely successful and delivered as per plan. Another project did not reach its funding target. I'm currently backing two projects, both from vendors I think are experienced and trustworthy. I've also pre-ordered an expensive game from one vendor and some figures from another, both on the open market, nothing to do with Kickstarter. I've paid in advance, and there is risk that the goods may not be delivered. But I've done my due diligence and, based on the vendors' track records, I think they will be. There's nothing really special about Kickstarter: "There's a particle of risk in every business, Jack m'boy." – Mr. Merriwether, "Little Big Man" |
Grignotage | 31 May 2016 7:36 p.m. PST |
I absolutely cannot stand sales schtick, so this sort of behavior at a convention would turn me off, possibly even from a product I want. Actually buying into a kickstarter is not something I've done yet. |
Shadowcat20 | 31 May 2016 8:16 p.m. PST |
Only invested in one KS, the newest Zombicide Black Plague. My wife enjoys the game so I spent a fortune picking up all the Promo KS characters off E-bay for 3 seasons. Got smart and invested in the newest KS just to save a fortune. Provided everything is delivered I should make out well and get ahead of the game (got 3 full sets). What I am finding funny is the stores got the basic game and a few extras delivered and all the whiners on the KS board have issues with it. But I realize we have so much more coming and it took a while to make it. Deliveries started last week so expect the whiners to fade away soon as they get their toys. Like posted above KS is NOT a preorder so there is risk involved. Some idiots just think they are ordering out of a catalog and should get it first ignoring the part about risk. KS can be a great deal, just choose wisely and if it is too good to be true, you may want to back off and watch. |
ced1106 | 31 May 2016 8:34 p.m. PST |
I haven't been to a convention for awhile, but, no, I've yet to have anyone "hard sell" a game this way. Usually, I'll see a well-made prototype game, and the demo volunteer will tell me it's on KS when we first play the game. I think that's fine. |
Doctor X | 31 May 2016 8:49 p.m. PST |
The sell after a game wouldn't bother me. If it was something I liked and it was a good game I'd consider it. Why not? I game to have fun. Unless they were maybe pre-teens or younger, The fact he chased away younger gamers who he felt didn't have cash to spend does show shortsightedness. Often times they have more disposable income than I do. |
Mr Elmo | 01 Jun 2016 4:18 a.m. PST |
You are an investor. Not in the equity sense since backers do not become owners. It is closer to pre-order except that unlike online ordering you accept the risk that you might not get your stuff on time (or ever) and are not entitled to a refund. |
Cold Warrior | 01 Jun 2016 5:06 a.m. PST |
Aside from Reaper Bones, have noticed that in most KS I have looked into, the savings once the figures/game goes into production is not that substantial than if I had invested in the KS. Hence a "wait and see" attitude on my part. Have backed about half a dozen KS, all but one PC games thus far. Initial investment is low (say $20 USD), so if nothing comes to pass, I am out very little. The idea was a good one initially, it has mutated however from a company that actually needs investment to start up to one of established companies using it as a pre-order system. Lots of competition have made it difficult for those true start-ups to actually gain traction IMHO. |
nazrat | 01 Jun 2016 5:31 a.m. PST |
I have backed four Kickstarters now and all of them came through with flying colors except for All Quiet on the Martian Front. Even that one gave me almost quadruple my investment in models and I was only out about $100 USD worth of stuff so I still consider it a great deal. I think it is ridiculous how many people who have never used KS have nothing but bad things to say about the company. It's just another tool and some offers will be good and some will be bad but if you're careful and pay attention you will always get at least a little bit of a deal and often help out a new company to put out something really cool. As far as the guy Rudy mentioned in his original post, I see nothing wrong with what he did. Asking people who have just had fun playing a game if they would be interested in backing it is hardly "hard sell". |
Darkest Star Games | 01 Jun 2016 7:58 a.m. PST |
I have chipped in for several KS, and had 1 of my own. The first Bones KS came through pretty fast, Ghosts of Hefei took a lot longer than expected but did come through (and it's pretty cool!), Robotech is half done and waaaay overdue, Heavy Gear is taking forever… and there are others. My KS came through early with the only bump being a gal in Australia that kept moving making delivery almost impossible.' The problem I have with KS nowadays is that it went from "hey, please help me get started" to "this is our business plan, we only sell through KS and will do 4 KS per year". The later sort of businesses are the ones that have created the "I'm not funding unless I get tons of free stuff and everything equals a huge discount" mentality of supporters. When little guys try to do KS now they get bombarded with statements like "you aren't giving enough away so I'm not going to support you", which is of course their prerogative but that sort of sense of entitlement isn't really helpful. But, as stated above, KS is a crap shoot and the public will basically vote whether one fails or succeeds. |
Darkest Star Games | 01 Jun 2016 7:59 a.m. PST |
…and as for the hard sell, I have no problem getting involved with a KS if it's something I want to be a part of. I also have no problem telling someone when they're being a horses rear… |
McWong73 | 01 Jun 2016 8:35 a.m. PST |
You're drinking the cool aid if you approach it as an investor. Current reality is that both project owners and backers of successful KS campaigns approach it essentially as pre orders. It certainly didn't start that way, but for me that's the state of play. YMMV. |
BrigadeGames | 01 Jun 2016 12:56 p.m. PST |
KS can be used for preorders or idea funding. Obviously, everyone has figured out the preorders are the way to go. It makes sense for the miniatures business at lease as one has to know the costs to properly structure rewards and free items. Not doing so just invites disaster. I think the other reason that it has migrated to this plan is that there is a lot involved in getting project completed, even if the masters are already completed. And everyone wants to be on time. There really is no way to run a successful KS without: in-depth planning and cost analysis, good business partners, capital (because something unplanned goes off the rails at some point), and a reasonable timeline. Too short and you do not have wiggle room, too long and the buzz you create will dissipate and probably follow on sales will as well. Why anyone would feel any pressure to buy is beyond me. You buy in if it is something you want and feel it is worth supporting. In exchange you get a discount and possibly some freebees. If too much is given free or the discount is too high, walk away. We went the KS route (second is currently running) because (1) we could reach customers we never dealt with previously and (2) fund the product range within a short (2 month) period rather than a several month to a year wait for breakeven. Thing is I had already invested the money for greens months before so yes I was biting fingernails during the KS. The worst part of a KS is getting answers from backers when you need them. Many do not check email as often as one assumes. |
CBRFigs | 01 Jun 2016 1:42 p.m. PST |
I got severely burned on one kickstarter and that jaundiced my view of them considerably but then I realised thaat just like in investing or betting on a horse race you should as the investor / punter at least try and work out the likelihood of getting a return on your money. I am presently backing one kickstarter (I had backed the company's previous kickstarter earlier this year and their subsequent indiegogo campaign, both of which delivered on time and continues to offer great support even though those campaigns have officially delivered), but now I am much more cautious, and I find it pays a return that is hopefully well worth the investment / punt. |
Waco Joe | 01 Jun 2016 7:21 p.m. PST |
I have backed and currently back several kickstarters. Only the Ogre one was for tangible goods. The rest have all been for 3d printing files. Everything has gone and is going smoothly. |
David Manley | 01 Jun 2016 9:38 p.m. PST |
TBH unless there was something of a particularly "hard sell" nature in the way the guy was acting it doesn't sound likelike he was exerting that much pressure at all, more of a reasonable question. |
nazrat | 02 Jun 2016 6:36 a.m. PST |
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Ivan DBA | 05 Jun 2016 10:10 a.m. PST |
I don't quite understand how this was a high pressure sale. But perhaps Rudy is being polite in describing the presentation. Turning away younger players does seem rude. In any event, it's unfair to attribute the failings of the few miniatures KS projects that went bad to all Kickstarters. I've actually lost track of how many Kickstarters I've backed now, but so far I've been happy with all of them. Some have been a home run, some have had delays, but none was a scam in any sense. |