"Turkey Furious Over Images of US Soldiers With..." Topic

…Kurdish Patches.

"Photos of US troops wearing patches from the Kurdish People's Protection Unit, known as the YPG, while fighting the Islamic State alongside Kurds in Syria have raised questions about how close US soldiers are to the war's frontlines.

The photos, taken by Delil Souleiman for Agence France-Presse, have also enraged Turkey and reignited the debate over Washington's support for the YPG, with some calling the patches "politically tone deaf" and others insisting it is "perfectly normal."…"
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Syria war: Turkey anger over US commando photos

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Amicalement
Armand

Somewhere there's an officer who needs a talking to….

"We reacted to it. It is impossible to accept it. This is a double standard and hypocrisy." So sayeth Turkey's foreign minister.

Pot meet kettle.

I'm upset that Turkey's upset…oh wait, no I'm not. Soldiers have NEVER, EVER exchanged patches among themselves. Turkey wants to read more than that into it? An exchange between soldiers? Boy, I don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight!

They weren't exchanging patches, they were wearing unit patches to identify themselves with the Kurds that they were attached to. This is a combat zone, not friendly exchanges after a field exercise.

I have no problems with the US soldiers doing this btw.

Let's not deny or obfuscate.

Agree with USAF, Cyrus and cw .. and if I have not said it recently … !

So the choice is between supporting the troops in the field who are trying to blend in with the local forces and to some extent protect themselves or indulging a luckwarm ally who cares not one whit about our interests.

If you choose the latter you probably should have troops in the position of the former.

And of course the update is that they have beenn ordered to remove the patches.

or indulging a luckwarm ally who cares not one whit about our interests.

You mean the Turks !?

And of course the update is that they have beenn ordered to remove the patches.

SGM must have got the word … and spoiled all the fun … again …

So much for the lie that these troops are not in combat and are there only in an advisory and training role or to coordinate air strikes. The real damage done by this and other similar exposures of US forces' activities in Syria is

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Frankly the more troops supporting the YPG/YPJ the better. The Turks can take a long walk off a short pier.

More conspiracy theories Rod? They are there to coordinate air strikes. To control Close Air Support (CAS) you have to be a qualified Forward Air Controller (FAC/JTAC) even SF. The clue is in the word Forward, you have to be with the troops you are supporting to do it. As the troops we are supporting are engaged in close combat with the enemy there is a fair chance they will also get shot at, a JTAC won't operate on his own so that's why there's quite a few SF types running around in Syria. Strangely enough it's also giving them excellent practice for if they do have to go full on with IS.

Why the fire engine?

The bakery ran out of bricoles, that's why!

Foxweasel:
No conspiracy theory at all. Just the regrettable abjuration of truth to the people of the USA. Your points are valid and make perfect sense. However, that does not make the covert nature of this war and the deception of the US state towards its people any less true.

And before anyone says, "Truth is the first casualty of war.", there is no declared war to hide behind as ISIS is not a branch of al-Qaeda anymore and has been repudiated by al-Qaeda.

The presence of these special forces and the recruitment of large numbers of mercenaries (international and US ex-servicemen) to fight with the Peshmerga and the so-called Democratic Syrian Front is not acknowledged by the US state and the mainstream media. Thus the Forever War continues unabated as it contributes to the misery of the Middle East and the poverty of the US tax coffers. The tax-payers are being defrauded by their own government and are powerless to stop this robbery unless these abuses are made public. That is the basis of responsible government. The State must be accountable to the people or democracy fades and fascism may very well result.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Lets see – the Kurds have a shop that can make nifty patches, the Turks don't like the US forces wearing 'Kurd exclusive designer' patches. So why haven't they just made 'We are all friends together, USA & Kurds' patches? They could even make them 'exclusive' or 'collectable' ;-)

Spineless. Why are we so afraid of offending the Turks? What are they going to do, ditch NATO and align themselves with Russia?

Yea, well I'm not bothered by that in the least.

What offends me is all the ISIS-oil Turkey was buying, and other pseudo-support Turkey was giving to the jihadis in the region.

So a "Special Forces" unit that is training Kurds is supposed to dress in regulation uniform. What part of Special Forces do the Turks not understand.

If the Turks want us to stop our support of the Kurds then why don't they go into Syria and Iraq and kick ISIS back to the 7th century. At this point US forces leave, Kurds and Christians go back home and Turkey gets a quiet boarder and possibly friendlier/fearful neighbors who respect them.

I think we're afraid of offending the turks because, aside from the fact they hold the keys to Europe WRt the refugee crisis, they've got a very handy airbase which the Americans are doubtless using.

Who needs a Turkish airbase? We have carriers and other allies nearby. Turkey can go into meltdown mode and it won't hinder any US war against terrorists in the Middle East.

Who needs Incirlik?

We do.

So rather than a one hour flight to provide air support, or make an airstrike, the only other option had been to fly directly from US bases for some of the planes. -Or you think B-52s can fly from a carrier?

Flights from the US takes 20 hours and require 4 (I think) mid-air refuelings. This places tremendous stress on pilots making these flights and increases chances for errors exponentially. It also increases dangers for pilots, crews, refuelers as well as additional wear-and-tear on our aging fleets. Then there's the costs…

As noted, Incirlik is exceptionally useful. For a start it'll be where those SpecFor types are being supplied from, and from where their CASEVAC will be based.

Of course the FACs are going to get close to the troops they're supporting. But any competent commander would be alive to the delicate feelings between different allies in the region.

If if there's photographer sin the area, wearing the patches of an enemy of the people who control your supply lines is dumb.

Agree with Rod!.

Amicalement
Armand

Incirlik is important, but it is given and taken away on a Turkish whim.

They weren't exchanging patches, they were wearing unit patches to identify themselves with the Kurds that they were attached to. This is a combat zone, not friendly exchanges after a field exercise.

Maybe, maybe not or both. I know Gulf war II vets that exchanged patches and it DEFINITELY wasn't after field exercises!

Well given it is in Turkey it is theirs to withold of the USA acts against perceived Turkish interest.

Well given it is in Turkey it is theirs to withold of the USA acts against perceived Turkish interest.

Countries will always act in their own interests. If the Kurds are more amenable to US interests than the Turks, sooner or later the US is going to take note.

But the USA can't help the Kurds without the Turks….

Maybe, maybe not or both. I know Gulf war II vets that exchanged patches and it DEFINITELY wasn't after field exercises!

And did these soldiers add those patches to their uniforms?

Only cases of military wearing insignia of other nations is when they are attached to that command.

And did these soldiers add those patches to their uniforms?

I had to ask. One of them told me they fastened them to their uniforms, but they didn't sew them on and it was well away from the officers.

That's why velcro is so useful on a uniform!

Extra! Extra! Erdoğan shrill and hysterical about Kurds. Earth also round, and water wet.

How is this any different than us wearing a keffiyeh and growing out our beards? We did this all the time in country, most especially when we were stationed with or in support of local ANA/ANP forces. Waco Joe has the truth about it… we did it to indulge a lukewarm ally, but it also showed that we were with them. It garnered a varying amount of respect (more so from the elders than the younger troops) and that led to a certain degree of good will.

It's different because by wearing a Kurdish unit patch you are showing support for the Kurds who have, rightly or wrongly, killed a lot of Turkish soldiers and whom are now targeting Turkish civilians.

The Kurds have killed a lot more Turks than ISIS ever did.

Well, if you want to talk about how many Turks the Kurds have killed, remember that the number of Turks killed by Kurds will never approach the number of Kurds killed by Turks. Look up the Dersim Massacre, among several others. While the numbers are probably exaggerated, (British sources claim upwards of 40k, Kurdish sources upwards of 70k) the generally accepted number is between 10k-13k in that one instance! Something on the order of 10k-13k killed and as many more forced into exile, essentially depopulating the area, all in the name of 'Turkification'.
Sorry Stu… no love lost for the Turks. They didn't particularly care for us either in Afghanistan. Their compound was across the Jbad highway from one of our FOBs (The Alamo). When Tallies hit the main gate of the Alamo, the Turks were very slow in responding. Our own QRF got there first, from about 10 miles further down Jbad highway.
Regarding Incirlik Airbase, yes, it is theirs to give and take as they see fit, but so is the millions of dollars in foreign aid provided to Turkey by the U.S.

I am making no judgement on the relative merits of the Turkish/Kurdish argument.

I'm merely saying that looking at this incident from a Turkish point of view suggests this was bloody stupid.

Like it or not, you need to keep the Turks on side and that means having some sensitivity for local feeling.

The tax-payers are being defrauded by their own government and are powerless to stop this robbery unless these abuses are made public.
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defraud – illegally obtain money from (someone) by deception

on news in UK as Brit SF there too also in Libya – no comment except from the usual suspects. Reaction of most people would be a combination of so what/isn't that what we pay them for. i am sure US/CAN/AUS SF are deployed all over the place and surprisingly the sky has not fallen in.

doesn't exactly sound too covert:
'Baghdad-based spokesman for then coalition, U.S. Army Colonel Steve Warren, said: "U.S. and coalition forces are conducting advise and assist operations to help Kurdish Peshmerga forces".
He said he could not confirm which country those seen by Reuters were from.

"They may be Americans, they may be Canadians or from other nationalities," he said, when told that some forces were reported to be wearing maple leaf patches, the emblem of Canada.'

This earlier story was on the not exactly little known alternate media called the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation

'A contingent of Canada's elite commandos were thrown into a day-long battle alongside Kurdish Peshmerga fighters as the Islamic State launched its biggest offensive in Iraq since western troops arrived in the region 18 months ago.

A three-pronged assault, involving hundreds of extremists, took place along a wide front in the sector, northwest of the Kurdish capital of Irbil, where Canadian special forces have been training local forces.'

GNREP8:

Defraud
To make a Misrepresentation of an existing material fact, knowing it to be false or making it recklessly without regard to whether it is true or false, intending for someone to rely on the misrepresentation and under circumstances in which such person does rely on it to his or her damage. To practice Fraud; to cheat or trick. To deprive a person of property or any interest, estate, or right by fraud, deceit, or artifice.
Intent to defraud means an intention to deceive another person, and to induce such other person, in reliance upon such deception, to assume, create, transfer, alter, or terminate a right, obligation, or power with reference to property.
West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.

If the state's agents act in such a way as to move the state into a condition of de facto war by subterfuge or through secrecy, and if they do so against the wishes of their citizens and the citizens' elected representatives, and if in doing so they or their supporters benefit from this de facto state of war and if there is no legal declaration of war, then that fits the definition of fraud.

In the case of the Canadian JTF-2 personnel in Iraq, they were sent to train and instruct Kurdish fighters. Their parliamentary mandate expressly forbade them from direct participation in combat (except in personal self defence). When the news broke that they were in direct combat as they 'instructed' Kurds on target acquisition and targeting air strikes and artillery strikes, the Canadian electorate realized that they and their parliament had been lied to. That government is no longer in power.

Man/woman on-the-street indifference to foreign policy and war is hardly an excuse for acts of military aggression by the state. The fact that a state pays its professional soldiers does not give that state license to ignore the sovereignty of other states and to covertly insert these troops into foreign countries with impunity. This is an act of war and the electorate or their elected representatives (who are supposed to be responsible to the electorate) must be openly and formally consulted and must give their consent for military action at any scale of operation to be legitimate.

The Forever War and the perpetuation of a permanent war-footing in times of peace is antithetical to democracy and to small-L liberalism. This permanent military posture erodes transparency due to military concerns over security and secrecy. The security and secrecy stops the electorate from being fully and properly informed about what the state is doing in their names and on their behalf. This makes the state less and less accountable to the citizens from whom the state derives it legitimacy and tempts the state to erode or circumvent the rule of law. The state supplants the traditional vertical relationship it has with its citizens and replaces that old power structure with new horizontal relationships to powerful concentrations of capital, influence and communication. Soon the state no longer looks to the citizens as its sole source of power and legitimacy. A secret and possibly rogue state emerges within the greater apparatus of the traditional state. The state becomes more prone to abuse its power and due to the secrecy/security climate can hide this abuse behind unchallengeable secrecy. Eventually the state becomes authoritarian and democracy mutates into oligarchy and potential despotism.

The Forever War and its attendant militarism/security-obsession, which it creates and depends upon, are a far greater threat to the democratic and liberal traditions of the West than the terrorism which is being used to justify the Forever War. The medicine is worse than the disease and does not cure the disease. It only holds the symptoms at bay for a time as the disease adapts and strengthens. It is a losing strategy and it is consuming us (the people) along its misguided way.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

But any competent commander would be alive to the delicate feelings between different allies in the region

Believe me … if he's a Spec Ops commander in that area. He is very much well beyond "competent". His first priority is getting the Kurds' "respect" and train and lead them to be effective forces. And you or anybody are in no position to question this Commander's actions. He is there … in the thick of it. The only one that can "2d guess" him is his Higher HQ …

He may well have known what he was doing. As by wearing the Kurdish patch(s), it not only bonded them. But by Kurds seeing they were ordered to remove the patch by Higher HQ. It may further that "bond" even more. As he and his team is on the ground and doing a very tough and "dirty" job. And they are still right there along side the Kurds. Regardless of what the Turks believe.

It is highly unlikely that the Turks' "anger" over this would have done anything to effect US-Turk relations, IMO.
There are bigger fish to fry.
And now the patches are removed. And even the Turks should realize what the priority is.

However, that does not make the covert nature of this war and the deception of the US state towards its people any less true.

Surely some one as well read and knowledgeable as you should know what Sun Tzu said. Let me give you the short version. "All war is deception" …

it contributes to the misery of the Middle East

At this point … most of this "misery" is of their own factionalized tribal Islamic predilections. It's time they stop blaming the US/West for most of their own failings.

The State must be accountable to the people or democracy fades and fascism may very well result.

Yes for example, the islamic/arab states in the region should be accountable.

As I see it … the US, Canada, the UK, France and Western Europe are very far away from being "fascist" states. While many it the Mid East are very close if not already there. IMO of course.

Man/woman on-the-street indifference to foreign policy and war is hardly an excuse for acts of military aggression by the state. The fact that a state pays its professional soldiers does not give that state license to ignore the sovereignty of other states and to covertly insert these troops into foreign countries with impunity.
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How is the presence of FACs on the side of an ally of a govt we support aggression, or ignoring sovereignty or covertly inserting troops. The aggressors are ISIL. The US and allies are operating in Iraq in support of the govt of Iraq. You are surely living in fantasy land (sorry) if you expect Iraqi FACs to be bringing in US and coalition aircraft. Presumably you dont believe that Allied air assets should be deployed in Iraq. I would accept that in Syria perhaps technically the situation is different as there we dont have a invitation as such from the govt.

How would we actually declare war against ISIL anyway. We in the UK never declared war against the murderers of the I Ran Away as that would legitimate them as soldiers as opposed to terrorists which they are

GNREP8:

There is no record which I can find of a formal invitation by Iraq to allow these special forces to operate on Iraqi soil in 2014 and there is no SOFA agreement as far as I can tell, so their status may not be legal.

Violent clashes between The Kurdish Peshmerga and Shi'ite Turkomen militias supported by the Iraq government have been happening in this region. The latest clash which I am aware of happened in Tuz Khurmato in late April of this year. The western special forces are supporting the Peshmerga and the West is arming the Peshmerga against the interests and the expressed desire of the Iraqi central government, which does not want this to happen. These special forces have not been invited in but have been imposed on a weak central government which cannot stop such activities.

The potential presence of special forces in Syria is a continuation of this policy of taking military action without declaration of war or in the case of Britain and Canada in direct contravention of a parliamentary vote.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Legion 4:
War is deception. But what of peace? If we are to be in a perpetual state of war then we are doomed to live in a permanent state of deception. That is why there must be clear delineation between war and peace. The 6th Century general Sun Tzu is an authority on war but has no real value on balancing the needs of modern liberal democracies with demands for militarism and possible authoritarianism. He was an authoritarian and saw no problem with killing innocents to make a point. The story of the training of the king of Wu's concubines makes that clear, if the story is based in fact. Remember that Sun Tzu's beloved kingdom of Wu was an absolute monarchy and was consumed by the wars of his times and disappeared during the warring states period.

With respect to fascism, I suggest you look up the fourteen or so points which are used to decide whether a state is fascist or not before you dismiss these trends out of hand.

Cheers and welcome back.
Rod Robertson

These special forces have not been invited in but have been imposed on a weak central government which cannot stop such activities.
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of course that always the answer whether its Ukraine or various countries in South America as well as Iraq.

Lion – the job of the commander is to fight ISIS.

If, by this action, the Turks close Inchiluk to US forces, how is that aim to be achieved?

You can train Kurds without wearing patches or, TBH, you can just ask the soldiers to remove the patches if there is a photographer about.

But what of peace?

In this era … a pipe dream …

He was an authoritarian and saw no problem with killing innocents to make a point. The story of the training of the king of Wu's concubines makes that clear, if the story is based in fact.

Well aware of Sun Tzu's background …

With respect to fascism, I suggest you look up the fourteen or so points which are used to decide whether a state is fascist or not before you dismiss these trends out of hand.

So I submit how many "democratic" Western nations would be considered "Fascists" ?

Maybe the US should change it's Eagle to the Fasces [a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging.] ? The symbol Italy used in WWII …

the job of the commander is to fight ISIS

I say again … His first priority is getting the Kurds' "respect" and train and lead them to be effective forces.

His Team's main mission is that … and to call in massive amounts of CAS as required. Which has a synergistic effect that all goes to the killing/elimination of Daesh. Training … leading … calling in CAS = terminating Deash/AQ, etc., with extreme prejudice … as the saying goes …

I thought his primary aim would be to not harm the interests of the USA, they are, after all, paying his wages.

Without the Turks, he's not going to get much CAS…

Ideally he'd just tell his men to be more careful around photographers. I've personally got no problem with them wearing patches, but the wider context needs to be considered.

Well if you want to go that direction. The SF Team's first priority is to stay alive. And it is a given that the US pays their wages. They are volunteers many times over. Sent into a combat zone by legally elected civilian leadership.

Regardless, their perspective is very much different than any one's here. Or even in the white towers along that big river lined with cherry blossoms in the spring.

And again, the US will get it's CAS, CSAR, etc. … If any one on the planet can do it … the US high tech and military inventory can make it happen. And the Turks are members of NATO. And even they know it's to their advantage to have the US at least as a "Frienemy" …

In any event, I very rarely try to second guess the commander on the ground. He's there … I, you, we aren't …

The Turks are under no obligation to provide the USA with anything currently…especially if the USA is seen being chummy with their sworn enemies.

And if the US didn't need Inchiluk, it wouldn't be using it.

As I said, I've no problem with them wearing unit badges. my problem is letting themselves get caught so doing, it's simply naive and causes needless problems.

The Iranians are fighting ISIS too. I'll guess the Americans wouldn't be too happy if the Kurds standing next to the Americans suddenly started wearing RG badges.

Imperfect analogy, but you get my drift.

The air base is Incirlik guys. Sorry to be a pedantic pain but this has been bugging me for awhile; my bad.
Cheers and apologies for this tangent.
Rod Robertson.