Aotrs Commander | 26 May 2016 12:54 p.m. PST |
Done a bit of research for fun looking at a UK road stretch of a main road to see what features it has. link Over about 5 km fom Necton going West it has just on the North side of this main route. 10 tracks/roads leaving the main route 2 woods, 4 Ditches that would stop ay least 4 by 4 wheeled. 7 hedges leaving where there is no track (just on north side) all at least difficult to a 4 by 4. 2 woods about 300m frontage to the road. 300m frontage to a Built up area. This is critical stuff. Going off road even in a tracked vehicle following this route would be MUCH slower than on the road. This terrain density is key to setting speeds and tactics in larger games where distances of 5km or more need to be covered quickly. This is proably why large 1 platoon per stand games need to asess very carefully how the units move cross country to how thay more along roads. Get this wrong and the game becomes pure fantasy. Note this road section was selected as typical rural. There are areas that are far more dence and a few more open so it is typical.
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Extra Crispy | 26 May 2016 1:07 p.m. PST |
Obviously this is very dependent on location. Here in the US there are hundreds of miles of:
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Aotrs Commander | 26 May 2016 1:41 p.m. PST |
US civil wars are not my bag ;-). Europe is more likely to be fought over. The area I picked in the UK is representative of some areas of Northerm Europe. |
Rudysnelson | 26 May 2016 1:52 p.m. PST |
Old maps over 50 years, have different notations than current military maps. The type of woods were designated. A primary concern about European roads in the 1900s was there capability to handle heavy vehicles and a high volume of trucks for supply. Evaluating bridges was a key function of the scouts. While friendly bridges were evaluated prior to the battle, a new evaluation was needed after a heavy Soviet bombardment. |
Saber6 | 26 May 2016 2:12 p.m. PST |
EC, that bit looks crowded compared to my local area |
Legion 4 | 26 May 2016 3:54 p.m. PST |
Get this wrong and the game becomes pure fantasy. Most wargames I have played. In some cases you move double your basic speed on the road and 1/2 cross country. And some areas are "No Go Zones". Like AFVs can't move thru a swamp. Where Infantry can at 1/2 speed, etc., … |
Aotrs Commander | 27 May 2016 4:09 a.m. PST |
Legion that is typicaly a failure of rules. Cross country on ground like this you would be locky to do more than 3 mph average while you picked/cleared spots to cross. On road ann average speed could be as high as say 18 mph, a factor of 6 not two. Even a Churchill proably one of the slowest tanks could do 12 mph on road a factor of 4 diffrent. Everwhere has no go zones but this is just typical contryside in Norther Europe within a few miles of substantial Urban development and on a main route so is typical terrain to be fought over. Its interesting that lots of games do not reflect this. While even we get urban wrong we do aim to have at least 10 buildings in an area so that we at least get a few resticted sight lines which gives a more representaive ganme. Crossfire is proably the best at this as it has huge numbers of building sections/cover but, personaly its atepmts to grow outside rifle range distances fails fairly dramaticaly. Our next game is going to be based on this section of road, bent to fit about 600m wide and 10km long onto an 8 by 6 board. At this levele there is lots of uncertainty on who is where and uniquely maybe room to allow some attack helicopters into the FEBZ due to the extent of the terrain. It won't be a single eaveing game (I hope). |
Legion 4 | 27 May 2016 6:47 a.m. PST |
Well after doing it for real both dismounted and mech for 10+ years in 4 Infantry Bns (1 Air Assault, 3 Mech), in my distant youth. Worldwide in all types of terrain, jungle, desert, urban, etc. … The norm was to move from cover to cover if you could. While on the road based on the situation you may be moving as fast as you can. I found those rules easy and a good estimation without being too "fiddly". I've also called in and coordinated attack and assault helicopters as well. Gunships usually do best hovering behind cover and popping up to fire and then go back behind cover. And they take long range shoots. As … If the enemy gets too close helicopters can be as fragile as trucks. IMO … don't try to "over think" the "rules" … I'm all for realism in gaming, I wouldn't have it any other way. But there are a lot of variables in both mounted and dismounted movement. Over various types of terrain, etc., light and weather conditions, etc., … For example in an old AH game "Tobruk". Once a vehicle or squad stopped. You rolled 1d6 to see if they found some cover. After being in the desert I see that as a very good rule. As you can't see every fold, bump, etc., on the ground until you are on top of it. But as I always say, Do What Works for U … Not me … |
Steve Wilcox | 27 May 2016 1:12 p.m. PST |
Well after doing it for real both dismounted and mech for 10+ years in 4 Infantry Bns (1 Air Assault, 3 Mech), in my distant youth. At Gettysburg? :) |
Legion 4 | 27 May 2016 2:23 p.m. PST |
Yes, in an alternate reality ! Isn't there a series of Sci-Fantasy about high tech stuff and aliens in the ACW ? But Steve I think you should have posted that on this thread too ! TMP link |
Aotrs Commander | 29 May 2016 1:58 a.m. PST |
Legion 4, One show we met an ex Infantry trainer. he said his hardest job was to get recruits to see cover under 6"! However the point is the data presented is all about what is clearly seen on maps and photos(UK high resolution maps have had field boundariues in since Napolionic times). Lesser cover as you state cannot be easily seen until on the ground. In general however such cover will not massively impact vehicle or infantry movement rates. The exception may be bad going but this is often betrayed by a change in flora. These features provide defined cover and obsicals so cannot be easily abstracted. |
Legion 4 | 02 Jun 2016 3:15 p.m. PST |
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UshCha2 | 15 Jun 2016 12:36 p.m. PST |
OK so based on the Google map we have a 10K section of road inspired I guess is the word based on fundamentally the terrain on one side of the road.(even though bits are on the wrong side in places. The very thick black lines are board edges. Note this is a very flat area so no hills are present, its not an omission. It does give something close to realistic terrain density's. Note all the watercourses will be a good 4 m wide so not cross-able by tracked. Bridges on main road are all good for 70tonne. Smaller 15 tonne and very narrow 7 tonne. comments ? Ps, at the moment this is a map without a scenario so suggestions welcome. I may even write it up to help other folk. The rules will be MG obviously, as few others can cope with this terrain standard and the distance and still be playable (over a few evenings not one). |
UshCha2 | 15 Jun 2016 12:37 p.m. PST |
OK so based on the Google map we have a 10K section of road inspired I guess is the word based on fundamentally the terrain on one side of the road.(even though bits are on the wrong side in places). link The very thick black lines are board edges. Note this is a very flat area so no hills are present, its not an omission. It does give something close to realistic terrain density's. Note all the watercourses will be a good 4 m wide so not cross-able by tracked. Bridges on main road are all good for 70tonne. Smaller 15 tonne and very narrow 7 tonne. comments ? Ps, at the moment this is a map without a scenario so suggestions welcome. I may even write it up to help other folk. The rules will be MG obviously, as few others can cope with this terrain standard and the distance and still be playable (over a few evenings not one). |
Legion 4 | 16 Jun 2016 8:20 a.m. PST |
Note this is a very flat area so no hills are present, Hopefully the troops will find some sort of cover and concealment once they are on the ground. Generally whether mounted or dismounted, you'd trying to move to another location that would give some cover instead of moving out in the open. |
UshCha2 | 16 Jun 2016 9:56 a.m. PST |
There is lots of cover just no "hills" that is its flat to within a few feet. Lots of hedges, trees and ditches even on this map. |
Legion 4 | 16 Jun 2016 12:39 p.m. PST |
That would work. As I said … Hopefully the troops will find some sort of cover and concealment once they are on the ground. Looks like there is cover based on your map eval. |