Ney Ney | 23 May 2016 11:29 a.m. PST |
Talking about the North African campaign here…….. I thought that the Crusader III and Churchill and Valentine armed with the 6 pdr only fired AP shells but recently read that HE shells became available late in 1942. Hmmm. Can anyone tell me if my 6 lb armed tanks should be firing HE in the desert/Tunisia? Thank you! |
Martin Rapier | 23 May 2016 11:47 a.m. PST |
Yes, there was an HE round, but like most sub-75mm HE rounds, it was pretty ineffective. A lot more effective than trying to pick off dug in AT guns with solid shot of course…. |
Who asked this joker | 23 May 2016 11:51 a.m. PST |
In his account of the battle of Steam Roller Farm, Featherstone says the Churchills used their Besa MG to dispatch the enemy gun crews they encountered, not HE. So whether the 6lbr had HE or not, at the very least the crews did not think enough of it to actually use. |
David Manley | 23 May 2016 12:21 p.m. PST |
They were quite effective though when used at sea against enemy coastal forces craft |
Andy ONeill | 23 May 2016 12:32 p.m. PST |
I think the he rounds became available in small numbers late during the Tunisian campaign. It wasn't until Italy units received significant numbers. The steamroller farm account could well be explained by them simply not having any he rounds available. |
Ney Ney | 23 May 2016 1:20 p.m. PST |
Thank you all, sounds like it wasn't something worth featuring in rules. |
troopwo | 23 May 2016 4:43 p.m. PST |
Pretty rare to get and the effect as a bit less than a hand grenade. There are cases of Valentine crews using the casing of a 6 pdr and fitting a Browning mg into it, and then opening the breech and shooting it through the main gun. |
number4 | 01 Jun 2016 10:47 p.m. PST |
effect as a bit less than a hand grenade. Either you've never seen a six pounder shell or you've never seen a hand grenade. Six pounds of TNT is somewhat more effective than two ounces of EC powder. From a Churchill tank unit veteran: "To set the record straight as to the availability and effectiveness of 6-pdr HE. 8th Army ammo returns show that a substantial quantity of 6-pdr HE was delivered to the Middle East for RA use during November, 1942. The Churchill equipped North Irish Horse of 25th Army Tank Brigade, in which I served, had it in inventory prior to shipping to North Africa. Lending credence to the "supposed" lack of 6-pdr ammo is an incorrect statement in Captain (late Major) MorrelL's book referring to the Churchill and I quote: "It was under-gunned – its 6-pdr, with an AP range of 800 yards and NIL HE performance, had proved to be no match for the 75 and 88mm guns of the hull down or dug in German tanks encountered during its advance up the Medjerda Valley." It should be noted that Capt. Morrell (who was instrumental in creating the Churchill Na75s) formed his opinions based on his experience while attached to 21st Tank Brigade – note absence of "Army" – which not only saw action in Tunisia for only a few weeks as part of, and under command of, 4th Infantry (Mixed) Division. but also had not been issued with 6-pdr HE. What he failed to acknowledge that most of the action in Tunisia had been in the mountains where the 6-pdrs were more of a match for Panzers including the Tiger, and similar terrain was to be faced in Italy where the Na75s were to be deployed. He also failed to note that 6-pdr HE (which had not been delivered to 21st TB) had been used effectively by the North Irish Horse, especially in the Oued Zarga Mountains and during the battle for ‘Longstop Hill'. Our 6-pdr gunned Churchills continued using HE until the war's end.in Italy." |
Jemima Fawr | 01 Jun 2016 11:12 p.m. PST |
No.4, Gerry Chester? Do you know if he's still with us? His website has sadly died, but I hope he hasn't… |
Andy ONeill | 02 Jun 2016 2:53 a.m. PST |
The 6 pdr projectile weighed 6 pounds. A lot of that would be metal. The HE filler was more like 6oz. |
Pontius | 02 Jun 2016 11:06 a.m. PST |
I remember reading in an ex-gunner's memoirs that a few rounds of HE were useful to help break-up any infantry attacks on their gun positions. I can't remember the exact date, but it was late(ish) in the North Africa campaign. |
number4 | 02 Jun 2016 10:32 p.m. PST |
WO 291/496 Anti-personnel effect of small HE shell. Shell – Filling – Vulnerable area (sq ft) 2 pdr Bofors – TNT – 500 6 pdr HE Mk I/T/L – TNT – 1430 75mm – TNT – 3000 25-pdr – Amatol 60/40 – 3000 No. 36 grenade: Vulnerable area 900 sq.ft. |
Murvihill | 03 Jun 2016 10:03 a.m. PST |
I find it easy to picture radius than area (hopefully my math hasn't failed me) 2lb-4m 6lb-7m 75mm/25lb-10m grenade-5m |