Trojan Points | 23 May 2016 7:09 a.m. PST |
As you might have read already, I've recently picked up Horizon Wars and decided to build a British Battlegroup for that game… I decided to go with Brigade Models vehicles and Ground Zero Games infantry, and with models starting to show up in the mail (the infamous GZG wormhole helping) I'm starting to look into painting… What I'd like: -"Serious military" scheme, no "40K space knights" coloured power armour; -KISS painting: sprayed base coat, 2 or 3 more colours and a dip/wash: I just want to play with my toys, not turn them into the new Sistine Chapel; -A scheme that says "those minis are British"… For the vehicles I'm considering either Cold War British Armour (2/3 green, 1/3 black)…
Or Cold War RAF (1/2 green, 1/2 grey)…
I've heard about "scale fading" (minis need to be painted lighter that their real life models, because smaller objects reflect less light and thus always appear darker; the smaller the scale the more important that effect)… But how to account for that effect? Are there tools to figure out "colour X in 1/1 becomes colour Y in 1/300"? Or is it all "your guess is as good as mine"? What specific colours would you use for the two schemes above in 1/300? What about infantry? What base colour would you suggest that is: - Contrasting with my bases and terrain (DIY shop mixed paint based on an old pot of GW Karak Stone, i.e. Kakhi)… - Light enough to paint 6mm infantry; - Says "Space Tommies"? What about secondary colours (weapons, faceshields)? |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2016 7:39 a.m. PST |
Yes … no circus colors ! You can use a number of different type paints. But if you want to get the detail. You have to use GW Washes. Colors should be as you posted there. Here's a link to my IG. I have a mix of CinC SEM, GW Epic, etc. … this should give you some ideas … link Small Arms = gray or gun metal. Heavy weapons = a camo green or tan. Face shields = gloss black or black |
javelin98 | 23 May 2016 8:52 a.m. PST |
Since it's sci-fi, you have lots of latitude. I agree with L4 -- no circus colors! Beyond that, pick something that looks good to you and go with that. |
Gaz0045 | 23 May 2016 9:53 a.m. PST |
Go with the grey/green combo, the black/green appears to 'hard' in micro scale………stick some roundels on 'em too, like WW1 planes……. |
javelin98 | 23 May 2016 11:37 a.m. PST |
Here are a few of my 15mm sci-fi color schemes. Sadly, the quality of my camera and/or lighting has rendered a yellow tinge to all the pics. Desert:
Grey/green:
Brown/grey with green highlights:
Grey/brown:
Brown/green digital:
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Legion 4 | 23 May 2016 12:21 p.m. PST |
Very nice ! That is the way military vehicles should look like. Not something out of Barnum & Baily ! |
Cicero | 23 May 2016 8:00 p.m. PST |
You could try a variation of the Berlin Brigade colour scheme. |
williamb | 23 May 2016 8:32 p.m. PST |
this site has a guide for adjusting colors link This site will match colors in a photo to paints from different companies scalemodeldb.com/paint I usually use green spray primer for vehicles and white spray primer for figures. I use white instead of black to keep the colors from becoming too dark. |
TheBeast | 24 May 2016 5:46 a.m. PST |
So, does Horizon Wars fluff include extra-terrestrial? I've no problem with 'circus colors' if the tabletop matches. Doug |
Legion 4 | 24 May 2016 7:05 a.m. PST |
Of course … the camo would reflect the terrain. But I was talking more about Fire Engine Red in a climate like Terra … But like these I saw on Darkest Star's site. This would be painted to blend in with whatever the terrain of the planet it was operating on …
Where this would work well in desert environs …
Where this would work only in the machinations of the brain trust of the GW staff and rabid fan boys who drank the GW And those who GW was appealing to – Kids who like bright shiny things … to get more sales … of course …
Barnum & Bailey would like this ! |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:15 a.m. PST |
@Legion About "circus colours": I can live with them in certain setting… What I'm trying to achieve here is a "couple decades in the future" look, so no-non-sense military colour for this project! |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:22 a.m. PST |
@Javelin: "Sci-Fi = whatever you want"… Yes and no… Sure, they're my minis and I'm allowed to paint them whatever I want (same goes for historical miniature: if I want to model a pink StuG with yellow-uniformed French Napoleonic riders, I just can; the only constraint is my desire to achieve a certain look; "painstakingly researched historical" being just one of the choices I'm allowed to make)! For this project, I'd like to find a scheme that makes the average wargamer think "British Army", hence the two I came with (CW BA and CW RAF). The question was what colours to use to achieve that effect, taking into account the scale of the models (6mm)… |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:31 a.m. PST |
@Gaz Agree the black won't cut it… But I've seen example of people achieving the right look by using dark grey instead of black:
I'm thinking RAF fin flash (1 red and 1 blue vertical stripes) rather than roundel: roundel screams "Air Force" to me and seems off on a tank… |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:34 a.m. PST |
@Legion & Javelin Inspiring stuff… Not quite what I'm looking for, but still! What I'm looking for: a scheme that says "British" (with the minis themselves being obviously Sci-Fi, the goal is for the overal effect – minis + paint – to say "Sci Fi British"! |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:36 a.m. PST |
@Cicero I though about that one but: - My Battlegroup is suppose to be invading France, not to garrison Berlin… - More important perhaps: that scheme looks like waaaaay too much work ;-D |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:38 a.m. PST |
@William Very interesting stuff! I'm still browsing around those links, but they seems to give a better idea of how to practically address scale fading (beyond "use a lighter colour")! |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:42 a.m. PST |
@Beast The background is divided in 4 "milieus": 1: nearish future, Britain invade France, WW3 ensues… 2 & 3: martian and venusian (venerian?) megacorps go at each other while Earth sits by (too busy watching mech gladiators games on TV during milieu 2, zapped into post-apocalyptic-wasteland during milieu 3) 4: no holes barred space opera Milieu 4 as aliens, but I'm building a force for milieu 1 :-D |
Trojan Points | 24 May 2016 8:51 a.m. PST |
More ideas for British schemes…
BEF Dark and Light Disruptive Camouflages… The FoW painting guides (for 15mm models) calls for Vallejo Brown-Violet (887) with either German Camo Dark Green (979) or Cruiser Tank Green (202)… The lighter one looks like it could be light enough to take the downscaling well! I wonder if I could get away with an AP Goblin Green spray paint coat with a camo pattern in a suitably downscaled Brown-Violet… Time to take a closer look at WilliamB's links! |
Legion 4 | 24 May 2016 3:06 p.m. PST |
About "circus colours": I can live with them in certain setting… I never can ! What I'm trying to achieve here is a "couple decades in the future" look, so no-non-sense military colour for this project!
I understand that … Those last two pics should be your guide, IMO … |
boy wundyr x | 25 May 2016 7:09 a.m. PST |
I go with the theory that in the future adaptive camouflage will be the norm, and in any sort of space-faring setting, that leaves too many potential camouflage schemes to pull from (for the red planet, the purple planet, the desert planet, the jungle planet, the rockball planet, the iceball planet, etc. etc.), so I go with parade ground colours. Of course, if you're sticking to one place on Earth or a known planet, then you can do camo for that setting. |
Trojan Points | 25 May 2016 7:43 a.m. PST |
@Boy I can see your point… Only the games I play usually simulate battles, not parades. So the minis should picture the vehicles with their "future adaptive camouflage" turned on… So unless I can figure out how to fit my mini with their own miniature "future adaptive camouflage", I have to actually paint one camo scheme, either fairly "neutral" or fitting one given setting I decide to be the default one for that force (their homeland/-world or one specific ops they did I want to model). Or paint several different armies representing different "future adaptive camouflage" programs… I get your point, really. But I think we have a case of settling for an imperfect solution for lack of better but still practical one! |
Legion 4 | 25 May 2016 8:43 a.m. PST |
Well I think your best option is the WWII or later/Modern UK Camo … You may want to check out the GHQ UK WWII link and Modern link links to see some more examples. Don't over think it. Many times AFVs were just painted in 1 color. Like a shade of green … Or if deployed to the desert in shades of Tan. When I was in the ROK in the Winter we'd White Wash our AFVs. So you'll have to decide what Terra environment you will operate in. After 2 Gulf Wars and A'stan, many AFVs stateside in the US still are painted in a shade of desert Tan. Because their most likely deployment regions will a desert in the Mid East or SW Asia. |
TheBeast | 26 May 2016 8:38 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the breakdown, Trojan Points! (venerian?) I think it was the Victorians who felt the spelling to close to… Well, you know. ;->= It's why you sometimes see 'Cythereans.' Not to be confused with the ST 'Cytherians.' Legion 4: Understand you and TP completely, but having missed moving tanks TOO well camouflaged, there's something to be said for 'just painted wrong'… Doug |
Legion 4 | 26 May 2016 2:41 p.m. PST |
Indeed … we were doing a night recon during REFORGER '87 [IIRC], of a German village. We were creeping between what I thought was two buildings. Turned out one was Canadian Leo MBT. Didn't know it until I touched the tracks ! |
Trencher | 29 May 2016 5:01 a.m. PST |
Have you ever considered the old early WWII Caunter camouflage? O.k., it would be more appropiate für fighting in deserts, but IMHO it would look nice on a tank, even in a sci-fi setting.
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Terry37 | 29 May 2016 9:34 a.m. PST |
The British walker for my post apocalyptic WWII army is going to be done in the later war British scheme of SCC No2 (brown)with a disruptive pattern of SCC No14 (blue-black). I will also follow the WWII camouflage guidelines of having the upper surfaces being predominately of the darker color and the sides being more of the lighter brown color. For my Land Cruisers in my Turtledove Race army I will be using a Caunter scheme but in more Race colors of an arid dry planet with little vegetation or water, so mostly tans, sands and browns. Terry |
javelin98 | 31 May 2016 10:30 a.m. PST |
I think this is a model of what Trencher was describing:
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Extra Crispy | 03 Jun 2016 5:21 p.m. PST |
Two things: I don't think any camo scheme feels like it belongs to a specific nation any more. More and more they all start to blend together. As for carnival colors, I like them. After all, blending in color wise assumes an AWFUL LOT about the sensory abilities of your enemies. What if they locate like bats and don't "see" at all? What of they are color blind or only see in a different part of the spectrum? Or have yet some other sensing thing entirely (heat? density? X-Rays?). |
Legion 4 | 04 Jun 2016 6:54 a.m. PST |
Carnival/circus colors belong there … not military units, IMO. We don't know what forms of detection will be available in the future or counter-measures. However generally it's good idea to blend in with your surroundings. Anything that could make you a target or may give you the 1 or 2 seconds of advantage … may be critical. Never give your enemy any type of advantage or "edge". As I posted above, this camo wouldn't would in temperate climate … but would work in environs where it "blends in", breaks up the outline, etc., … like on another planet.
IMO … of course … |
Extra Crispy | 06 Jun 2016 7:32 a.m. PST |
Yes, but blending in is based on the sensory organs that are looking at you. Just because you "blend in" in the very little piece of the spectrum that humans see does not mean you "blend in" in other ways. One of my standard "handwaviums" is my opponent is color blind. So what matters is breaking up my silhouette. Colors used don't matter so long as you hide those edges and surfaces with contrasting colors. Of course, it's a pretty pathetic future if we're still finding the enemy with biological organs instead if a swarm of very small networked drones… |
Legion 4 | 06 Jun 2016 7:58 a.m. PST |
It also depends on the level of tech your enemy has. Plus for every measure taken to find the enemy. He may have a counter-measure. So by using all forms of counter detection from standard camo, cover & concealment to thermal, etc. gives you a needed edge. Even the Iraqis in GWII figured out a way to fool our NVDs, thermals etc. … And along as we are biological organisms we will have to use all our senses. To some extent. On a night patrol, you use your ears and nose more often than your eyes in very dark light conditions. My M113 Mech Co. '87-'89 had 32 NVGs authorized but we only had 5 on hand. And at any give time 2-3 of those were down for repairs. And the Company was authorized 112 men. So even if I had all 32 NVGs only about 1/3 could have them. So we learned how to work with what we had. And as I noted, any tech has a chance of mechanical malfunction or operator error. We may see similar situations occur in the future with all that higher tech. Remember Scotty telling Kirk he was working on repairs and giving it all he had, etc. … However I do think we will see more and more drones and robotic tech, etc., on the battlefield of the future. But like with any tech, weapons, etc., … it's only as good as the trooper behind it. |
Trencher | 09 Jun 2016 11:53 a.m. PST |
Night patrols had been an interesting thing. I always loved them. To stumble around in a dark forest with some quiet SPz Luchs whining silently all around you (you really heard these brutes first when they already had been right *on top* of you…) was a hair-raising but nevertheless interesting experience as well. So indeed, you use your ears and nose more often. And with all the technologies and weapons that will come along, they only will be as good as the human being that uses it. I think, our human senses need to be trained more often. |
javelin98 | 09 Jun 2016 2:30 p.m. PST |
Some of the most fun I had was doing a night breach of an enemy perimeter minefield. Crawling on your belly in the dark, probing for mines with a fiberglass probe or sweeping with a mine detector, then disarming them or putting C4 on top of each one… yeah, that was the stuff my 20-year-old heart craved. Now, at 42, not so much. |
Legion 4 | 09 Jun 2016 3:25 p.m. PST |
Night Ops though challenging, IMO are one of the best methods for Grunts to do things. But also I have no problem with Tank/Mech Ops in daylight with volumes of FA and CAS support … |