Tango01 | 21 May 2016 3:13 p.m. PST |
"Vietnamese soldiers in September during a parade observing the 70th National Day in Hanoi. President Obama will visit Vietnam on Sunday. Credit Kham/Reuters CAM RANH BAY, Vietnam — The ghosts of the Vietnam War have finally faded at the strategic port of Cam Ranh Bay. More than 40 years ago, United States forces left this massive base where Marines landed, B-52s loaded up for bombing raids, and wounded American soldiers were treated. Now, some Vietnamese say they are yearning for the American military to return. "On Facebook, there was a question recently: What do you want from President Obama's visit?" said Vo Van Tao, 63, who fought as a young North Vietnamese infantry soldier against the United States. "Some people said they wanted democracy. I said I wanted the Americans to come back to Cam Ranh Bay. A lot of people agreed with me." Mr. Obama is scheduled to arrive in Vietnam on Sunday, the third visit by an American president since the war ended. The big question he is expected to answer is whether Washington will lift a partial arms embargo and allow Vietnam to buy lethal weapons from the United States. The Communist government has long asked for the ban to be revoked, and American access to Cam Ranh Bay could be part of the payoff…." Full article here link Like the cammo uniform!. (smile) Amicalement Armand |
SouthernPhantom | 21 May 2016 9:00 p.m. PST |
Vietnam has given the impression of being a fairly competent ally…I say go for it. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 22 May 2016 12:01 a.m. PST |
I'd say it was long overdue. Vietnam should never have happened – the US got confused between Nationalism and Communism. |
Bangorstu | 22 May 2016 2:59 a.m. PST |
I concur, but it was a crazy time. I do wonder how many of these communist states were only so because they had no alternative source of help. Cuba's revolution could have been handled better… It's not like the South Vietnamese government was any better. As for today, Vietnam has a reasonable economy, a relatively recent track record of giving the Chinese military something to think about and has a useful strategic position. I see no downside. |
Mako11 | 22 May 2016 3:32 a.m. PST |
I'd prefer them to obtain assistance from their former allies. Conflicts have consequences, and I don't see why we should attempt to bail them out again, especially since we were so rudely treated the first time. Perhaps, in the future, they will choose more wisely. That would be an excellent lesson for our other foes around the globe too. Sometimes karma can be a bit@@…….. |
Bangorstu | 22 May 2016 4:22 a.m. PST |
To be fair, the Vietnam War was one the USA poked it's nose into – the North Vietnamese didn't invite attack, nor did they attack the USA. That's is a mess you volunteered for. You could hardly expect them to roll over. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2016 9:11 a.m. PST |
Vietnam should never have happened – the US got confused between Nationalism and Communism. I agree for every hard core Communist in the NLF/VC there probably was another who was a Nationalist. And note during Tet, the NVA pushed the VC forward into battles where they would probably take heavy losses. After Tet the VC really only equated to about 3 regiments generally in the Cham Coast region. And they were fleshed out with some NVA/Northerners. As the NVA didn't want to have to deal with a large number of Nationalists. Once SEATO had left, which they knew was inevitable. When they defeated the South. Which even surprised the North how quickly the South fell. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2016 9:19 a.m. PST |
Conflicts have consequences, and I don't see why we should attempt to bail them out again, especially since we were so rudely treated the first time. Indeed … regardless why we were there. The US then was still under the illusion of the "Red Peril" so to speak. Which in hindsight we now know was really an invalid concept. Along the inaccurate paradigm of the "Domino Theory" … But as always hindsight is generally 20/20. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 22 May 2016 9:24 a.m. PST |
'I agree for every hard core Communist in the NLF/VC there probably was another who was a Nationalist. ' In the beginning I would say the proportion of Nationalists was probably much, much higher. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 22 May 2016 9:43 a.m. PST |
Now that the Philippines has backed off to Chinese bullying, someone else has to step up to the plate. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2016 9:46 a.m. PST |
Yes, I tend to agree. As I said, the NLF/VC did take a lot of losses and were not the force they were before Tet or the early years of the conflict. |
NavyVet | 22 May 2016 10:21 a.m. PST |
Chinese bullying??? What an odd post. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2016 4:21 p.m. PST |
As we know the POTUS just landed in Vietnam. It was reported, their flight path wisely avoided any disputed islands or newly created land features … |
Mako11 | 22 May 2016 9:50 p.m. PST |
A pity, since flying over the SCS would send a pretty strong message. Of course, a strong escort would be recommended, given Chinese aerobatic antics of late in the region. Okay, that idea's copyrighted for Topgun II, or Topgun III, depending upon whether they actually do the first sequel anytime soon. Of course, I'll be happy to share with any studios, for a "reasonable" royalty fee. I reserve the right to define what is "reasonable". |
Skarper | 22 May 2016 10:02 p.m. PST |
Can't see it happening. Vietnam is allowing Japanese naval units to use Cam Ranh bay but I don't think there has been any discussion or even desire for the US to return – from either side. I didn't read the article linked to yet so perhaps there is some foundation but I suspect it is just speculative and sensationalist. The US has bases again in the Philippines. [I don't get that the Philippines has backed off or down to China BTW though the new president may well change tone/tack. We'll have to see.] We've had some USN visits and some joint exercises. I saw a few US sailors in their white uniforms strolling around town a couple of years ago. I would have said hello but they were across the street. More than half of Vietnamese are under 40 and have no recollection of the American war. It is taught in schools and they still give it a lot of TV air time but it is not a big deal for the young. The older generation who lived through it seem to just think it was necessary. There is little hate for America or Americans that I can see. The cost may have been excessive and the results less than ideal but at least the right side won. Had the monstrous Saigon regime prevailed things would have been far far worse. |
Lion in the Stars | 22 May 2016 11:48 p.m. PST |
I do wonder how many of these communist states were only so because they had no alternative source of help. Both Ho Chi Minh and Mao fall into that category. |
Skarper | 23 May 2016 2:02 a.m. PST |
HCM asked America for help repeatedly but was ignored. Truman has a lot to answer for. |
Bangorstu | 23 May 2016 4:39 a.m. PST |
Obama has just announced the USA is lifting its arms embargo. |
Skarper | 23 May 2016 7:11 a.m. PST |
Yes. Frankly if they will sell to Saudi Arabia they should sell to anybody not actually attacking the US or a close ally. Question now is what the Vietnamese military actually wants/can afford to buy. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2016 8:04 a.m. PST |
HCM asked America for help repeatedly but was ignored. Truman has a lot to answer for. The US was allies with the French. The French wanted their SE Asia colonies back after the IJFs were defeat there. During the IJF's occupation of French Indo-China. The US OSS set up "ratlines" for downed allied pilots like in Western Europe. The OSS types did assist Ho in combating the Japs. But Ho didn't really get the supplies that they needed. Why would Truman not assist an ally like the French vs. HO ? And of course hindsight is 20/20 … Yes it was reported that the POTUS lifted the Arms Embargo. Which most feel is to annoy the Chinese. Like the Chinese are claiming islands, making islands, and extending their "borders" in the ocean. And I agree with this move by the US. Vietnam and China fought at least 2 conflicts since the end of the US involvement there … |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2016 8:13 a.m. PST |
More than half of Vietnamese are under 40 and have no recollection of the American war. It is taught in schools and they still give it a lot of TV air time but it is not a big deal for the young. The older generation who lived through it seem to just think it was necessary. There is little hate for America or Americans that I can see. The cost may have been excessive and the results less than ideal Yes, I have generally heard similar. And generally agree. However, does not the UN(?) have some Human Rights violations leveled against the current Vietnamese government ? link but at the right side won. Had the monstrous Saigon regime prevailed things would have been far far worse Of course there are Vietnamese here in the US that would disagree. And it was reported the North did use some very draconian methods and techniques against the defeated South in '75. |
Bangorstu | 23 May 2016 8:31 a.m. PST |
Vietnam is certainly no saint when it comes to human rights, but I think it is improving. I don't think it's any worse than others in the parish. This isn't to say they're nice people, but as noted if you sell to the Saudis you've set that particular bar very low. As to what the Vietnamese want, BBC said that they need decent communications equipment and coastal naval kit. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2016 1:41 p.m. PST |
Yep … a lot of "Bad players" out there … |
Dal Gavan | 23 May 2016 6:27 p.m. PST |
G'day, Legion.
The US was allies with the French. The French wanted their SE Asia colonies back after the IJFs were defeat there. True. But why did the UK, who was also an ally and pulled its own weight in WWII, get pressured hard by Roosevelt, then Truman, to grant independence to its Asian colonies immediately after WWII? Many of the problems associated with India-Pakistan-Bangladesh-Kashmir may have been reduced (I don't think they could ever have been eliminated) if the UK hadn't been pressured to act so precipitately, putting a really poor solution in place for the sake of getting it done. Agreed, the UK was also abiding by promises/agreements with Gandhi, etc, to get out quickly, but a major factor was the US' insistence. Why wasn't the same stance taken with the French SE Asian colonies? Instead the US backed France's attempts to re-establish colonial rule. If the US had guaranteed French withdrawal by 1956 (random historical date) then much unpleasantness may have been avoided. |
cwlinsj | 23 May 2016 6:29 p.m. PST |
The POTUS lifted the arms embargo, but they will be tied to improvements in human rights… not that the Viets have any money left after going on a military spending spree. Don't expect them to be flying F-16s or driving Abrams anytime soon. This is mostly for propaganda purposes and to open discussions on US fleet visitation rights. |
Skarper | 24 May 2016 2:01 a.m. PST |
It is mainly for show I agree. Tying it to human rights issues is a face saver for the administration. Vietnam has spent big recently on new fighter jets, submarines and surface ships [Gepard class frigates?]. So they won't be buying much in the next few years anyway. It is possible some US vessels will call at Cam Ranh bay but unlikely they will use it as a base. Things would have to get a lot more heated first, though China is getting more and more unpredictable. |
Skarper | 24 May 2016 3:04 a.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 24 May 2016 8:29 a.m. PST |
Dal Gavan, you make a good point. And I don't have the answer for you. But I agree, as the OSS promised Ho that after the War and Japan defeated. They would get their freedom from France. That is what helped keep Ho working with the OSS, among other things. I don't know if the OSS purposely lied or that was what they were told by those in charge, etc. ? And I agree completely … had the French withdrawn and the US not involved, Vietnam free. It would have saved many lives, etc. … on all sides. Of course hindsight is 20/20 generally. But I think the overwhelming reason was the US, UK, etc., were afraid of the spread of Communism. And the Communist Chinese were supporting Ho. And remember the Communist North's invasion of South Korea. With both USSR and PRC support. So that just plays into the as we know now, the inaccurate "Domino Theory" … "Commies" attacking in SE Asia and Korea, the Berlin War, etc., etc. … It certainly appeared, as Mr. Churchill said something to affect of, an "Iron Curtain" dividing the Capitalist West & Communist East. In any case in as we see now. It would have been better to give SE Asia it's independence if not after WWII but even WWI. Again 20/20 hindsight … The UK's colonies in India, etc., were not looking like there were going to be Communists. So … that may have influenced the US's decisions ? |
Legion 4 | 24 May 2016 8:31 a.m. PST |
cwlinsj The POTUS lifted the arms embargo, but they will be tied to improvements in human rights… not that the Viets have any money left after going on a military spending spree. Don't expect them to be flying F-16s or driving Abrams anytime soon.
This is mostly for propaganda purposes and to open discussions on US fleet visitation rights. Skarper It is mainly for show I agree. Tying it to human rights issues is a face saver for the administration.
I agree totally … as one politician just said on CNN and it has been said before … "Democracy is messy" … |