"British Red vs. Hanoverian Red for Uniforms" Topic

I have often read of British uniforms in the 18th century being more of a brick red than a fire engine red, but am wondering if the Hanoverian uniforms were also brick red, or were they a truer red?

Thanks,

Terry

I read this somewhere… looking for the source…

British red uniforms had a tendency to turn a darker, duller shade of red (hence your brick red reference) after exposure to the elements. I would think the same applied to Hanoverian units (coats supplied by the British). I have also red that some of the dye used would take on a purplish hue. If I can find that reference, I will post it for you.

I tried a darker red for my Saxons so they would look a bit different, I think the answer is to paint how you want them to look, very few of us these days will have a clear idea how uniform dyes worked 300 years ago.

you can see my take on it on my blog link

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Thanks Lou and Roger. I am hoping there might be something which actually says, but if not I am happy to make the decision.

Roger, your Saxons are very nice!!!

Terry

Always hard to get the color red right.

Dirty darker pinks often work, for those who have been on campaign. Uniforms fade.

British and Hanoverian infantry had very similar coloured coats (and officers equally fine and motre scarlet). However the Hano uniforms were not supplied by the British. Hanoverians wore red uniforms well before Elector George Ludwig became King George I, and Hanover was a prosperous state with well developed industry (including lots of Huguenot weavers!).

The painting of the Bemerode revue in 1735 should give you an idea of the shade of red of the Hanoverian infantry.

link

dbf- very good point- I was looking at Niemeyer's book of this review the other week, and I didn't think of it just now!
That said- I think the text makes reference to all the units present having been re-clothed just before the review.
If we look at the Franz Phillip Gudenus eyewitness illustrations of the Hanoverian contingent campaigning against the French on the Rhine the year before in 1734- the red on their uniforms is more dull and brownish.

Thanks for those links, dbf1676!

Jeff

DBF, an excellent link. On my PC their coats look more scarlet than brick red. Which is what I am wondering since I always read their uniforms described as red, while the British are often described as brick red????

Terry

The Gmundener Prachtwerk from 1761 should be helpful.
link

DBF, Oh my! I have seen many of those prints before, but never in such a compete set. That is awesome!!!

Thank you very much,

Terry

One further question please. I am trying to determine the correct color for the general's shabraque. If it helps, I plan on doing von Scheele as my general. I am guessing there are three possibilities – blue, red, or his regimental facing color???? So far I have been able to find very little on Hanoverian uniforms, etc. for generals.

Thanks again,

Terry

Be advised that even a painting from 1735 cannot be trusted. Paint ages.

Photos of an old painting are even more suspect. How many viewings are on a calibrated monitor if the scanning was even calibrated.

It really doesn't matter what the shade is, you'll never know.

Mick, a very good point. For my peace of mind, if I could find one picture that showed a basic shade I could be happy with that, understanding the true color is most likely distorted – i.e. a blue, a red, or a color in the hue of the generals facings.

Terry

Likely they were the same shade of red. The British enlisted coats were made from the madder root, and likely the Hanoverian ones as well.

I attended a lecture years ago at Old Fort Niagara. The presentation was done by someone from Parcs Canada. The presentation was on an officer's grenadier mitre cap from the F&I War that Parcs had recently acquired. IIRC the facing color was yellow, and so was the bag on the cap. Inside the lining was a long list of owners' names, as the cap was passed from one officer to another. The very first name did not appear on the British Army roles. After further research, Parcs Canada confirmed the original owner of the cap was in the Hanoverian Army, not the British. Point being – the uniforms of the time period were almost identical – at least in the case of this officer's mitre cap.

Historygamer, great piece of info for which I thank you very much. I've been a collector for years of militaria as well, but never had anything as fine as a F&IW grenadier miter! My best is an 1840 French officers shako and an 1850 Belgian cuirassier helmet. But I do have a shako plate dug at Bautzen and several other nice Napoleonic pieces.

Back on topic, it sure makes sense to have ht colors be the same considering they were most likely made from the same dyes.

Terry

Everyone,

Just a reminder . . . as someone once wrote, the uniforms of any army who had been in the field for a month or more would have a very distinct color of MUD.

Now I certainly don't want my figures to look like mud (although that would be historically correct) . . . so I paint them as closely as I can, but if I am a bit off, who cares?

None of us were there to judge which is the correct shade of red. Paint them the way you want and get them on the table top. Don't worry about the color because none of us knows for sure anyway.

Just have fun.

-- Jeff

Both British and Hanoverian line regiments were dyed in Madder. This does with time darken and gives a brown tinge. The hue of the red may be altered depending upon the mordanting process which in effect is related to the type of water used.

In practice there was little difference in the Madder dyed cloth. However the officers coats were a finer cloth and dyed with cochineal which is a truer red.

You can see the different artists colours used to represent the uniforms in my book.
link

Stephen

Great reference, Stephen. Thanks for the link.

Stephen, I recently stumbled upon your book and ordered immediately. I have received it, and it is an excellent book. Being an all time fan of the Hanoverians it is spot on for me!

Would have valued more info on generals uniforms and their horse trappings, but that material may not be out there???

Thanks for it,

Terry

Stephen nailed the dyestuffs quotient head-on; Mrs Carp sold fabric to AWI reenactors, so I learned all about the differences between materials for the common troops and those for the officers.

Jeff of SaxeBearstein, paints my opinion perfectly! The issue here is that weather and batches would alter the overall look. Its not something to lose sleep over.

I did some research awhile back about various textiles used in making uniforms up through the American Civil War, and the dyes used. It is a pretty complex subject, and all I can do here is outline some basic points. In roughly the mid-19th century, synthetic dyes derived from coal tar began appearing, which proved fairly stable and predictable because they were produced using chemical formulae. Before that, dying was more an art than a science. All dyes were derived from naturally occurring substances. mostly from vegetable sources, some (including cochineal) from animals, possibly a few from minerals. However, the strength could vary substantially from one batch of dye substance to another, and the care with which the textile fibers were prepared could also affect the outcome. Some dyes would only set when combined with some other substance (not a coloring agent in itself) called a mordant, the specific substance varying with the desired color.

Since military uniforms were ordered in large batches, it may be assumed that any given regiment would match pretty well in color after a new issue of clothing. But since procurement used to be controlled at regimental level, there could be no assurance that a different regiment's uniforms would be a very close match, even though nominally of the same color, since they would have come from a completely different batch of material.

As previously mentioned by others above, colors fade in use. One cause is exposure to ultraviolet light, but some natural dyes are more prone to fading than others, so the rate varies. There is another factor to consider here. Some natural dyes are not very "fast," meaning that the color runs out of the fabric when it gets wet. A classic example that many older readers will recall is how much of the color used to run out of a new pair of blue jeans during the first washing, because they were dyed with natural indigo, which comes from a plant root. Many red fabrics also tend to run when wet. A final complication is that some of the natural dyes are chemically unstable and tend to change color when exposed to strong light. I recall reading somewhere that the madder red uniforms of the Swiss regiments in French service (during the Napoleonic Wars) tended to take on a violet hue in service!

And a note of warning: Don't take published uniform guides too literally. I once came across a different copy of a title I already owned, and was startled to discover that all the colors were much brighter than in my own copy.

In reality, units on campaign rapidly became so filthy that it was just about impossible to tell one color from another (as Jeff of SaxeBearstein already noted). But I see little point in painting units which all look alike, since one of the main attractions of miniatures gaming is the visual appeal of colorful figures. Personally, I always paint my figures somewhat brighter than I believe they would have appeared historically, because they tend to look darker anyway when viewed from any distance on a wargaming table.

The bottom line is that I also recommend not getting too wrapped up in worry about the exact color. Even were a surviving enlisted man's uniform to turn up, it would probably have changed substantially from its original color. We just can't get away from a degree of uncertainty.

Attilathepun, an good presentation. I agree if we can't have the wonderful mix of colors on the table top it detracts form the enjoyment. I too tend to paint a parade ground look and am not bothered by doing so.

Bottom line for me from this post is I plan ot paint my British in he Moroccan Red and the Hanoverians in a more Primary Red. Of course after I finish ht shading and highlighting they may both end up looking the same.

Terry

Terry,

Glad to hear that you found my comments of some use. Good luck in fielding your new units.