nevinsrip | 06 May 2016 8:16 p.m. PST |
The Osprey Saratoga book includes a picture of Loyalists, with their coats reversed, in a battle with the Patriots at Oriskany. The book credits the Loyalists as "Royal Greens" so I am assuming that means Johnson's Royal Greens. Since the coats were green, turning them inside out they should still be green. So, I'm guessing that they were lined with a light tan color material as shown in the illustration. But what about the facings? What Patriot force were they trying to impersonate? Finally, what Patriot unit did battle with them? Were any Continental Units present of just the Tyron County Militia? I have a box each of Perry British and Continentals. I'm thinking that this would make a cool little scene so hopefully the author of said Osprey book will be along to provide some answer. Of all the Osprey books that I own (and I own about 100) the Saratoga book is, by far, the most useful. I've always got my nose in it, finding stuff that I missed the first hundred times that I've read it. I'm hopeful that the forthcoming Cowpens book is up to the task. |
Sigwald | 06 May 2016 8:36 p.m. PST |
There is a good blurb about what is known of KRRNY uniforms here: link |
Winston Smith | 06 May 2016 9:36 p.m. PST |
Perhaps merely turning the coat was enough. The Continental uniforms were such a hodge podge that any uniform not green could be assumed to be Continentsl. However, one NY regiment had a "drab", or unbleached fabric color coat. So would be the lining of the KRRNY. at a distance, facings would be irrelevant. In the end, the ruse failed, so maybe it wasn't a good idea after all. |
Supercilius Maximus | 07 May 2016 2:58 a.m. PST |
Winston pretty much has it there. British/Loyalist coats had a white lining throughout, as the facings were usually just coloured strips sewn onto the outside of the coat. When reversed, only the lining would be seen (the artist got the facing thing wrong). I think the NY regiment was the 4th (Livingston's) which only adopted the white coat in the year after Saratoga. However, light coloured coats are often found in deserter descriptions (almost as numerous as blue or brown coats) and so were clearly common civilian wear. It was also adopted as the colour for a single-breasted coat with a facing-coloured collar and cuffs, made in large numbers for the Massachusetts regiments of 1775, but delivered too late and issued to the Continental regiments of 1776 (see the first volume of the Zlatich Osprey MAA on Washington's Army for a design). Thus, Rebel forces would be more likely to interpret such a garment as "friendly" unlike the "hostile" green. The Tryon County militia, supported by up to 100 Oneida tribesmen, were the only forces present – no Continentals. Herkimer sent Gansevoort a message telling him to fire three guns and sortie out of the fort, when the militia were in position – unfortunately, none of the three(?) messengers sent arrived until the morning after the action and Gansevoort's actual sortie was fortuitous. Some of the Iroquois had only spears and tomahawks, although most had muskets. Herkimer was accused of being a closet Tory, as his brother was serving with St Leger. |
historygamer | 07 May 2016 4:58 a.m. PST |
The inside lining was most likely a rough wool lining called white bay. najecki.com/repro/Wool.html SM is right about the artist getting what that coat turned inside out wrong. In fact, the entire coat, including the skirts should be made of the white bay. The cuffs and facings, if also turned inside out (doubtful) would have likely been red. The artist also go the spatter dashes (short leggings) wrong as well as they are too high (by half). Also, given that fellow is wearing a crimson sash, that would make him an officer. The breeches are a different color than the waistcoat too. Not sure if they are supposed to be leather, wool, or what? Further confirming the idea he is an officer has he has a sword. He also appears to have a ruffled shirt and cuffs. Maybe he was supposed to be a sergeant, but the sword and sash would likely look different. My own opinion – would have been better to have a different soldier on the cover of the book. It was a weak gambit to turn their coats and was discovered when one of the turncoats was recognized by Herkimer's men. |
rmaker | 07 May 2016 7:35 a.m. PST |
And the NY units at Oriskany were militia, so probably only marginally uniformed. Likely the goal of turning the coats inside out was to look un-military. |
Winston Smith | 07 May 2016 8:03 a.m. PST |
Yeah. I can't see a turned coat looking anything but shabby. The lining is not exactly tailored. |
historygamer | 07 May 2016 10:18 a.m. PST |
Since the doodles were still wearing a dizzying array of coat colors it was not a bad ruse and almost worked. |
Supercilius Maximus | 07 May 2016 10:57 a.m. PST |
@ rmaker – The Loyalists were coming from the direction of the fort, and I think they had captured one of the messengers telling Gansevoort to sortie out with the garrison. I'd say that was who they were pretending to be. |
vtsaogames | 07 May 2016 1:59 p.m. PST |
Big mistake by loyalists: cutting the route of escape of the militia. Since they were certain they would be slaughtered and Hekirmer was a real fighter and the sortie from the fort was successful, they stood and traded blows until the Loyalists called it quits. Normally militia that had taken those kind of losses would break and run. But they had nowhere to go. |
historygamer | 07 May 2016 4:53 p.m. PST |
And their Indian allies deserted them mid-battle when they heard their camp was being raided by the sally from the fort. |
Winston Smith | 08 May 2016 2:28 p.m. PST |
I have a game mechanism in mind already for Flames of Liberty/TSATF. |
Virginia Tory | 10 May 2016 8:32 a.m. PST |
Well, it was mostly the Indians. There was one of those odd Battlefield Detective things about Oriskany on this past weekend (I think it aired originally in 04 or some such). Some interesting terrain analysis, though I think they overdid the whole "Indians wanted to close in for hand to hand combat," somewhat obfuscating the fact that the Indians all (or mostly) had muskets. They goofed the losses as well--400 dead for the Rebels and 100 or so for the Indians/Loyalists. Um, I think that's total casualties. Kind of a basic thing to screw up. Still, it was interesting. BG has a scenario for it. I just need to paint a ton of Indians before we can play it… |