"RAF strikes in Iraq and Syria have killed 996, MoD " Topic

"Nearly 1,000 members of the Islamic State group have been killed in RAF air strikes in Iraq and Syria in the last 18 months, figures suggest.

In response to a freedom of information request, the Ministry of Defence estimated 974 "enemy combatants" had died since the UK bombing campaign started in Iraq in September 2014.

A further 22 had been killed in Syria since air strikes began in December last year, it estimated.

The MoD said no civilians had died…"
From here
bbc.com/news/uk-36178206

Good job!

Amicalement
Armand

Hopefully … at least … 996 …

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

And they report zero civilian casualties.

Hmmm…

Yes … Hmmm ? Magic !?!?!? Has Merlin been reincarnated ?

Legion… dude!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Stu,

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I'm sceptical of 'zero' but don't think it's many because the targets being struck don't seem to be in inhabited areas.

I just wish the RAF would sing its own praises more and do what the USAF does and show some battle footage to back up its claims.

I'm actually inclined to believe the zero casulties (and not just because I'm ex RAF).

The RAF tend to work to tighter rules of engagement than the Americans and Brimstone is repotedly much superior in maintaing a more focused effect, meaning less blast area that could cause collateral damage.

Ascent … I have to disagree. As many others have. Unless they caught those bad guys out in the open. Which based on the fact that the enemy moves, hides, lives, among non-combatants in built-up areas. It is a bit hard to believe 0 CD. Even it is thought that the targets were in uninhabited areas. Like what … the open desert ?

How would one know since the enemy does not generally wear a uniform and generally blends in with the locals ? Which is a standard insurgent tactic, right out of Mao and Che'.

And as I repeatedly say, Brimstone is Not magic … no "Smart" munition is. I could be wrong, but based on my experience, former 101 Air Assault Inf Bn Air Ops Officer[among other duty assignments, '79-'90]. I'd say 0 CD in this situation is not very likely, IMO …

Well the areas being fought over are sparsely populated and the RAF seems to be hitting heavy weapons and trucks. It's reasonable to assume the cree are hostile and there's no civilians within won it so of a firing HMG. And whereas Legion continues to diss the Brimestone it does have a tiny warhead which helps.

But my innate cynicsm would find 3-4 easier to believe somehow.

And whereas Legion continues to diss the Brimestone it does have a tiny warhead which helps.

I don't dismiss it I'm just trying to remind everyone the No smart munitions are magic.

And it nice to have the option to only go after heavy weapons and trucks, etc., in supposed sparsely populated areas. But all the important targets are not always in areas like that. If you are going to wait for all the enemy assets to be in locations like that it's going to be a forever war …

As I said on another thread. The airstrikes have destroyed at least two Daesh "banks", many of their petroleum trucks and facilities, etc., … Plus a large number of their leadership, jihadis, equipment, etc. …
Regardless of what some believe, besides all the non-combat measures. Attrition of Enemy assets, is still part of the "cure" for eliminating islamo-terrorism.

And again, IMO, the paradigm that some believe that by killing jihadis and causing CD "magically creates" more jihadis at this point is more myth than anything else. Islamists, like Daesh, AQ, etc. are not the Viet Minh or VC. This is a different type of insurgent/asymmetrical warfare …

I'll take the views of former and current US Intel and Military assets than you stu … if you don't mind. I know I don't …

And for those targets in open area,s the rAf tends to use Paveway IVs.

For those in urban areas Brimestones which have a far smaller warhead than anything the USAF has. Hence the fewer civilian casualties.

I've been told a Brimstone can take out a car in a driveway without harming someone standing in the front door.

Of course if you aim it at the wrong thing, accidents will happen, but it seems a far better weapon for this kind of war than the Hellfire.

But, in destroying the petrol refineries, were we sure there was no-one in them?

Could be we just clobbered the important bits, and hence no big bangs, but it would be nice to know how the RAF are so sure.

causing CD "magically creates" more jihadis at this point is more myth than anything else.

Plenty of evidence from G'mo and other places that you're talking rubbish, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan where revenge for family deaths is a matter of honour.

I'll take the views of former and current US Intel and Military assets than you stu

Who tend to agree with me… oops.

Plenty of evidence from G'mo and other places that you're talking rubbish, especially in Afghanistan and Pakistan where revenge for family deaths is a matter of honour.

I'll take the views of former and current US Intel and Military assets than you stu

Who tend to agree with me… oops.

No … I've seen many of those recently interviewed who said as I have and I was repeating that. I remember one Intel type saying Gitmo can be emptied out and it would not effect jihadi joining Daesh. And it has not been mentioned by anyone in Gitmo for a very long time. That has longed past.

So again … I'll take the views of former and current US Intel and Military assets than you stu … I saw numerous interviews that agree with me … oops … Old intel like your spouting is of no use.

And if I may quote " you're talking rubbish " … Pay attention there is a war on.

But, in destroying the petrol refineries, were we sure there was no-one in them?

It was reported we actually dropped leaflets before strikes went it. Giving everyone time to leave. Which probably included some Daesh … Which is too bad.

For those in urban areas Brimestones which have a far smaller warhead than anything the USAF has. Hence the fewer civilian casualties.

I've been told a Brimstone can take out a car in a driveway without harming someone standing in the front door.

Of course if you aim it at the wrong thing, accidents will happen, but it seems a far better weapon for this kind of war than the Hellfire.

Then stu if Brimstone is "magic", how come only the RAF is using it ? Who else is using it and what is their record for CD ?

I think some just like think that they don't commit CD and they sleep better at night. "We are not like those Cowboy Americans !" But again the Cowboys limit CD and at the same time attrite more enemy assets. My statements are evidenced by the facts that so many high value targets in places like Raqqa and Mosul, etc., have gone unserved … And most US aircraft land with all their ordinance still in the racks …

Magic Brimstone.

I've been looking at Brimstone capabilities.

In Iraq & Syria, it would still use laser targeting as the method of delivery. This is same as Hellfire and pretty much every "smart" weapon allowed under ROE. No change.

The added capabilities of Brimstone, and which adds another US$100,000/each to the cost are advanced "fire and forget" electronics that allows it to independently seek targets in a designated combat box (look for, and then kill anything you find). This is designed to seek & destroy enemy tanks and vehicles in a conventional war zone. -This is NOT authorized for use in Iraq and Syria as it could inflict accidental & collateral damage.

So the extra costs and advanced electronics wouldn't be used. Then why would effectively the same weapon as the Hellfire be any better?

cw … you are talking facts and that are different than stu's … So both you & I must be wrong …

Yep. Must be it.

Yep …

Re Brimstone: The RAF originally ordered it during the Cold War, for use by Harriers and Tornados in engaging massed armoured assaults – a very different use than the actual use after deployment. One of those happy alignments of capability and unintended uses.

Hellfire cannot be used from fast jets. The US is developing new guidance packages and warheads for Hellfire with similar capabilities to Brimstone, but they still can't be used from fast jets.

The USAF, USMC and USN did look at Brimstone as a replacement for Maverick (which has now gone out of production), but then ordered the Joint Common Missile (JCM). However, the JCM project has now been cancelled due to sequestration and other political issues (even though it apparently worked pretty well in tests).

Since then, they've moved to the Joint Air-Ground Missile (JAGM) for helicopters and drones, which is the upgraded Hellfire mentioned above. However, the Hellfire production line will end in a year or two and the US fast jet fleet STILL has no replacement for Maverick.

Consequently, they're now looking at Brimstone again as an emergency stop-gap.

Good intel ! But no "magic" that will not cause CD ?

It's not magic. It has a smaller warhead and hence tiny blast radius.

What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?

And the RAF are not the only people using it either….

It has a smaller warhead because it is packed with so much additional electronics than standard Hellfire. It wasn't a design feature.

You could simply download any existing munition and save yourself from paying an additional US$100k per.

Which part of 'Hellfire cannot be carried by fast jets' are you finding difficult to comprehend?

The US armed forces face an imminent capability gap, in that they will soon have no air-ground missiles that are deployable on anything faster than an Apache.

What part of that are you struggling to comprehend?

I've been saying that to you … it seems forever. You just don't seem to understand Brimstone, or Hellfire, etc., are not sniper weapons … They have a blast radius, yes, if from nothing else the warhead hitting something. And the explosion, release of kinetic energy, etc. … A smaller blast radius means you have lower probability of a kill.

When the enemy does not wear a uniform, hides, lives, moves, some are part of the locals. A higher probability of kill is desired. AGAIN …. In many cases the insurgent is supported by locals. So again, we limit CD, but in this type of warfare. You have to be pragmatic and sometimes risk some CD. Again, if the US/West did not care about CD, we'd go back to taking out a city block or two to get one building etc. …

So once again …

The US armed forces face an imminent capability gap, in that they will soon have no air-ground missiles that are deployable on anything faster than an Apache.

But JDAMs and other smart munitions in the inventory are very accurate too …

Which part of 'Hellfire cannot be carried by fast jets' are you finding difficult to comprehend?

Jemima,
Don't know if you're trying to attack me here, but I never said that they could. In fact, if you search my postings on TMP, I've said the same thing myself.

Now what I have said is that the Brimstone would function and perform exactly the same as existing Hellfires when operating under current ROEs of Iraq & Syria.

Nothing for fast movers to use (besides the multitudes of existing laser guided iron bombs)? Hey look, the AGM-65 Maverick IS NOT cancelled! link

No more Hellfires? Well, whad'ya know…
link

The upgraded Mavericks are a limited number of reconditioned existing airframes. Manufacture has ceased.

Whad'ya know…

Hellfire is being replaced by JAGM (which is not fast jet capable) and the last Hellfire contracts are to expire later this year. As it is, the JAGM programme has already been cancelled and re-started and the missile is still a long way from entering production.

Foreign orders are filling Lockheed-Martin's Hellfire order books until 2018, but nothing longer-term than that. Unless the US Government or another foreign customer places further large orders for Hellfire in the near future, production will end in 2018. The UK is moving to a Brimstone variant for Apache and UAVs, so is unlikely to place any more orders.
Laser-guided and GPS-guided bombs are simply not suitable for all tactical situations – particularly not those where there is a high risk of collateral damage, such as in urban areas. Hellfire variants can do much the same job as Brimstone (and I don't agree with Stu that it's a magic bullet – it's another handy tool in the box), but Hellfire is presently tied to slow platforms (helicopters and UAVs) and simply can't respond flexibly to time-sensitive targets as effectively as Brimstone on fast jets. The SPEAR upgrade, coming into service in a couple of years, with a range of 100km+, will increase that flexibility even further.

All of this talk about weapon precision is only part of the story here. There other part is simply mundane government bureaucracy and propaganda.

What's not clear from the OP is how one defines combatants and civilians.

For example, the U.S. uses a definition that allows us to claim that virtually all "military aged" males killed in a strike count as terrorists. And "military aged" is pretty broad with some reason since an AK doesn't care if you're 12 or 70 when you pull the trigger.

Fudging the definitions allows us to count civilians as bad guys in many cases.

This is not a comment on the "validity" or morality of deciding to hit a target which will cause civilian casualties. It's simply a note that any claim that a series of strikes killed X number of innocents or bad guys should be taken with a grain of salt.

It works both ways too. I'm certain that true bad guys get counted as "innocents" too when killed in a strike.

The fact is war is messy and ironically civilians tend to suffer more casualties than warriors in most conflicts.

What separates the good guys from the bad guys is whether or not they try to avoid killing innocents (e.g. western forces) or deliberately murder innocent people (e.g. Daesh). In fact, our guys often put themselves in grave danger trying to avoid killing innocent people.

At the strategic level our reasons for fighting are not always honorable. That's a political issue.

But at the tactical level I have no doubt that, while there are some bad apples among our troops, the vast, vast majority are people you'd want defending you and from whom you have nothing to fear. We must never forget that and should never conflate their sacrifice with public policy issues.

Glad you are using Icon's Legion 4 less Dawg House time.

Yeah … I still say Mr. Bill has a target on my back … And he isn't using Brimstone !

VIS, I agree with what you say …

In fact, our guys often put themselves in grave danger trying to avoid killing innocent people.

But at the tactical level I have no doubt that, while there are some bad apples among our troops, the vast, vast majority are people you'd want defending you and from whom you have nothing to fear. We must never forget that and should never conflate their sacrifice with public policy issues.

Thank you …

My point repeatedly being that some seem not to comprehend that if we were not concerned about CD … We have more than enough conventional firepower to lay waste to many high value target locations. But again we don't do that with the #1 reason being we want to limit or keep CD as close to 0 as possible … However, again, that is always not an option.

Plus to add to the equation, as we see generally in anything humans get involved in – accidents happen … unfortunately …
[E.g., @ 250,000 in the USA die each year from medical mishaps, accidents, malpractice, etc. Which is the medical profession's opposite intent. "Do No Harm".]

I didn't say the USA wasn't concerned with CD, I said they were insufficiently concerned…

Big difference.

With the CIA attacks in Pakistan, it seemed very much as if CD was very much secondary to killing any given AQ functionary ASAP.

Which does, as I stated, simply make the problem bigger given the culture of blood feuds in that area.

Civilian casualties were also a reason given by the murderous swine who killed Lee Rigby in London.

I didn't say the USA wasn't concerned with CD, I said they were insufficiently concerned…

You again are just plain wrong. And your comments once again stink of Anti-US drivel.

With the CIA attacks in Pakistan, it seemed very much as if CD was very much secondary to killing any given AQ functionary ASAP.

Maybe it was … as I mentioned many times before … We have more than enough conventional firepower to lay waste to many high value target locations. But again we don't do that with the #1 reason being we want to limit or keep CD as close to 0 as possible … However, again, THAT IS ALWAYS NOT AN OPTION.

Maybe if someone like you were charge than your priorities might be different. But since you or I were not there, and had to make those decisions. We'll never know for sure. You can second guess those that have to make those choices all you like. But you were not there … Or trained or experienced in such matters. Again …

Which does, as I stated, simply make the problem bigger given the culture of blood feuds in that area.

Those "blood feuds" have gone on long before the US was in the region and will continue regardless. Don't blame the US or West for the backward tribal dominated culture of the region.

It's been that way for hundreds of years. Long before the US even existed. Like I said on another thread. In that region you can't swing a dead islamic tribal clan member without hitting another islamic tribal clan member.

You use the term "insufficient" with the US concern about CD … Now we're talking a matter of "degrees". Again you were not there and know all that each situation involved, etc. Or how many times missions were scrubbed because of CD concerns. Just as long as you can disparage the US when you think they made a decision other than you would make. You are Not a trained and experienced CIA operative and/or drone pilot.

So … Here we go again …

And your comments once again stink of Anti-US drivel.

A charge you often lay at my feet, but never justify.

I don't hold the USA to standards higher than I hold anyone else. I simply point out when the US armed forces do things wrong.

You object to that, preferring, I assume, hagiography.

And the standards I use are those of international law.

Don't blame the US or West for the backward tribal dominated culture of the region.

I'm not. That you think I said that is truly amazing.

I did say that given the tribal culture, civilian casualties will result in increased Taliban recruitment.

All clear now?

Again you were not there and know all that each situation involved

And, let's remember, nor were you.

I'm judging on results. You've decided to give 'Merica a free pas son killing people so long as they're thousands of miles away.

You are Not a trained and experienced CIA operative and/or drone pilot.

Nor are you. I note it hasn't prevented you from voicing an opinion.

A charge you often lay at my feet, but never justify.

Just read your posts ! I'm sure I'm not the only 'Merican that sees and feels this way.

I don't hold the USA to standards higher than I hold anyone else. I simply point out when the US armed forces do things wrong.

Because you don't understand the dynamics of the various battlefield conditions, etc. …

And the standards I use are those of international law.

As I said before, if you are going judge the US on the basis of international law. You better mention all the other groups, countries, areas, regions etc., that are way ahead of the US. In your narrow, biased, opinion of the US and international law …

I'm not. That you think I said that is truly amazing.

I did say that given the tribal culture, civilian casualties will result in increased Taliban recruitment.

In your opinion. Again IMO, once the West leaves and the locals are left to their own devises … it will be the same backward tribal Mad Max Thunderdome Hellhole it is now and will be … Just like after the USSR left. That you think otherwise is truly amazing.

"Again you were not there and know all that each situation involved "

And, let's remember, nor were you.

BUT unlike you … who have no military training and experience with ground/air ops. I do … Let me quote you …

Big difference.

I'm judging on results. You've decided to give 'Merica a free pas son killing people so long as they're thousands of miles away.

No free pass no matter how far away. Bad things happen in war. And sometimes the wrong people die. All we can and do is attempt to limit it. Let me quote you –

All clear now?

Nor are you. I note it hasn't prevented you from voicing an opinion.

Again I have nothing against voicing an opinion, but after it has been pointed out many, many, times by not only me, but some who have there, that your comments are incorrect. You still cease to understand the reality of the situation. Over and over and over again. Again, you have no military training and experience with ground/air ops, etc., etc., etc., …

You giving an opinion on this subject is fine. Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion. But it holds as much veracity as me telling a surgeon or dentist how to do his "job" …
As I can truly say in almost all cases … You don't know what you are talking about … And I'm not the only one here who believes this.

Oh before I forget … neither you nor I have much to do with hagiography. Not too many Saints on this site pilgrim !

Save your breath mate.

Again, you have no military training and experience with ground/air ops,

I have exactly as much military experience as

I have exactly as much military experience as Deleted by Moderator

As who ? Did you go political stuie ? You know that's a no-no.

Difficult to state without getting moderated apparently… :)

Let's just say the head of the organisation.

Difficult to state without getting moderated apparently… :)

Let's just say the head of the organisation.

Difficult to state without getting moderated apparently… :)

Let's just say the head of the organisation.

Well if I think I know what you said … In a rare case, I may have agreed with you !

Just be glad you didn't get DH'd ! If I said something like that Commissar Bill would have me in the "Cooler" again !

All ist Klar Herr Commissar …

Save your breath mate.

I know Fox … Any time I see stu post I should just post the "beating a dead horse" icon and move on …

I like this one better …

Bill you really should put this with the list of TMP Emojies !

Would save a lot of time

and typing …