"How to resolve Reaction Fire?" Topic

Say…

Your tank is sitting there. Not on any kind of Opportunity Fire. An enemy tank appears from cover and tries to pass through your field of fire to get other cover.

If each tank gets one activation per turn/round and your tank has already activated that turn, do you get to react and fire again? So essentially a second/bonus activation? Or did you already use up your activation and you can do nothing?

Similarly, if your tank *hasn't* activated that turn, does the Reaction Fire count as your one activation for the turn? So you're done for the turn and your opponent can do whatever he wants around you?

How do you … or rule sets … handle this?

Don't get messed up with timing or initiative issues. Just whether your thank gets to fire (again).

Thanks

Well in Iron Cross you spend a command token and then roll to see if you can activate again.

I think the key is that your tank has already activated. In most games I've played, the activation is one unit getting to act just a hair faster then the next unit, but I understand that all of the units are acting (more or less) simultaneously. Thus, whatever your unit was doing during its activation took up the time represented by that turn, and thus prevents you from firing at the unit that seems to be waltzing across your front. In "reality", that unit was moving while your unit was doing something else. However, I can also justify a rule that lets you pop off a shot (with a penalty).

Your tank is sitting there. Not on any kind of Opportunity Fire. An enemy tank appears from cover and tries to pass through your field of fire to get other cover.

That's exactly how it works in Crossfire. Your tank gets to shoot Reactive Fire at the enemy tank.

There is no concept of Opportunity Fire or Overwatch mode. ALL units are considered to be able to shoot Reaction Fire at any unit that moves into LOS.

I've seen rules do everything from not allowing reaction fire at all to always allowing it. No matter what the reacting firer did on their turn.

My preference is to have a tank marked as on overwatch in order to fire in the reaction fire "segment"

Blitzkrieg Commander allows anyone to Opportunity Fire in the opponent's turn provided the target enemy unit has moved or fired

Each unit is allowed op fire once in the opponent's tun and then receives a -1 penalty to their Command roll in their next turn

Simple

> a. Not being allowed if not in Overwatch?

This one, if you did not choose overwatch the unit in question was busy doing something else for the turn.

Simple in NUTS and Hello Hath No Fury.
Tanks comes into view.
Both Tank Commander roll 1d6 per point of Rep – think quality, training, etc.
Looking for successes – 1,2 or 3.
Most successes fires first, moving side only fires if it scores more successes.
Then the Reaction System takes over.

I'm with those who say no if not on overwatch. The tank crew must have some kind of mission or purpose at the time the other tank comes into view. If their mission was to watch for the enemy and engage then they should be able to (probably even if they have already activated too). If their mission was something else then really what happened is the commander spots the enemy but the rounds are not to hand and the gunner is not looking in his scope so the tank is not ready to fire. I would guess that by the time it is ready the opportunity has passed.

I think that in that particular scenario, Reaction Fire shouldn't be allowed if the tank have been already activated. Otherwise, it should be allowed, at least to check if it reacts in time before the enemy tank moves out of its line of sight/fire.

Reaction fire should be 'possible' but not guaranteed. If you've already fired then it would be harder to fire. If the target is popping in and out of line of sight it should by difficult to fire but not impossible.

Sometimes it may be too easy to fire but I'd rather too easy than too hard or impossible.

I HATE the way some rules allow the moving side to move right up to the non-moving side then fire from point blank range or into the side armour.

"That's exactly how it works in Crossfire. Your tank gets to shoot Reactive Fire at the enemy tank.

There is no concept of Opportunity Fire or Overwatch mode. ALL units are considered to be able to shoot Reaction Fire at any unit that moves into LOS."

Not quite, if you miss in reactive fire, you go to a "no-fire" result- so you can't fire that stand again in that particular initiative

Maybe you should be looking at it as a time and motion problem. From what I've read in WWII most trained tank crews could engage and fire at a target in their 45 degree frontal arc within 10-15 seconds. Variables would be if there was a delay in detecting it, buttoned up or unbuttoned, crew expertise and turret rotation speed.

A target moving at 20kph would move about 30 meters every 5 seconds. It should be pretty easy to calculate.

Any former tankers care to comment?

Wolfhag

This took us a long time to solve in Maneouver Group and its part of an integrated system but it goes roughly like this.

1) There is no over watch as folk are supposed to be looking all the time.

2) Folk that were looking already at a piece of terrain will spot something new quicker than a guy who has to take it in all at once. This gets to generally sort out who reacts first in a rational manner.

so in MG.

If a target appears insight (having been out of sight) at any time then you automatically get to shoot at it. Sometimes with a small penalty for reacting depending on the nature and stance of the shooter and a penalty for the time exposure if they move into and out of site in the same action.
However to stop it getting stupid the attempt costs you "sort of a bit of next bound". whether you hit or not.

This stops the idiotic shoot at anything even if the odds are poor as its a "free" shot syndrome. Wargamers can be stupid about ammo usage and I for one am not going to start counting ammo. It gives the right feel and copes with a lot of issues.

It covers a wider range of activities such as if you are a grunt and see the gun of a tank appearing round a corner you have a chance to hide quickly (if you can).

PBI tanks "pay" action points to shoot in their own turn. Usual cost 4AP. Available AP are usually about 2D6. In the opponent turn, tanks are allowed opportunity shooting.
In PBI armour gets a 5,6 chance to shoot at an enemy target within 3 squares. If it moves to another square then another attempt may be had. However only 1 success is allowed.

martin

Schogun,
Personally I don't think I can answer your question. The whole activation, reaction fire, opportunity fire, over watch with command points and random activation leave me confused. I know most people like them but not me.

I agree with UshCha about over watch. It seems to me things like over watch and opportunity fire were ways to get some interaction within an IGOUGO turn game. If you are doing some type of activation in the middle of a battle all units would be assumed to be watching all around them with their focus to their front. A specific over watch rule would be superfluous and complicate things.

Opportunity Fire really seems to me like reaction fire like the Crossfire example from christot. I can see where a non-moving unit would fire first against a moving unit like in MG. My question is what happens if a moving unit suddenly appears in your rear of flank with their gun pointed directly at you?

As far as "activation" tanks are not sitting dormant or inactive waiting for an order to do something or become active. When a threat comes into your LOS you react and it is not dependent on having command points or an order from above (maybe a few exceptions). I think some type of reaction rule with some limitations is better than activation. Reaction eliminates the need for complicated over watch and opportunity fire rules.

I have tanks that are engaged and firing blind in all but their front 90 degree arc. The crew and TC are too busy firing and spotting with the TC using binoculars they are blind to any threats in 270 degrees to their rear.

Wolfhag

These sorts of mental convolutions are exactly why non sequential activation systems cause all sorts of interpretation problems and aren't necessarily very 'realistic'.

As noted above, everything is looking all the time and should be able try and engage targets of opportunity, assuming they notice it, and possibly at some penalty (which may be quite big). Target fixation is a real problem in real life, as per Wolfhags suggestions.

I prefer the Rapid Fire system. If you do not move or fire in your turn you may fire in the enemies move or fire turn. Simple and works.

The original question raises a problem with those systems which do allow a chance to react even if the unit has moved and/or fired in its turn. In your turn you fire at a tank in the open and miss. That tank is still there. Do you then allow your unit to fire again if that tank, in its turn, begins to move to cover? If it does or doesnt move why can you suddenly fire at a brand new target which breaks cover but not the original target which is still alive and in the open?

In the incipient "chrisfire" rules i've been tinkering with for 6 months ( its a faster, turn based crossfire, for larger forces and multiple players) i'm leaning towards units being placed on react in your turn (costing activation points) allowing a unit to fire in the opposing turn – if you miss,however, you lose the reaction capability – making you vulnerable, if you keep succeeding, you keep firing- or you can make a reaction move (effectively disengaging). very much a "game" mechanic, making players judge when in their turn to execute such actions

we allow chains to occour but the penalties increase dramatical if the same element reacts more than 3 times. Never had an unreasonable result from this. Practicaly it could get stupid but at that point the tactics would be so stupid that you are wandering lost with incompetent players and it has strayed from the sane. The out of sane result is usually punishing on both so is an acceptable result for stuipid tactics.