Winston Smith | 24 Apr 2016 6:29 a.m. PST |
In my opinion NO. Painting miniatures us a hobby in itself. How could wearing a headset replace the joy and satisfaction of painting and collecting your armies? There are those for whom the game is everything and painting is a necessary but irksome task. I can understand that. But to me that's only part of the whole hobby. I keep reading pontification a on how painting will be replaced by the equivalent of 3-D video games. I think that is like saying craft beer will replace bacon and eggs. What say you? To make this a poll: 1. Yes. Painting miniatures will be a thing of the past. 2. No. Painting and playing are two different but related hobbies. 3. Virtual Reality gaming doesn't interest me. I prefer miniatures. 4. I like all sorts of gaming. I will probably do both. Feel free to add. |
Winston Smith | 24 Apr 2016 6:36 a.m. PST |
I might add that I have no interest in video games. I don't play World of Tanks, Call of Duty etc. and the AWI version of Assassin's Creed left me cold looking at the commercials. |
Pictors Studio | 24 Apr 2016 6:47 a.m. PST |
If it were going to, it would have already done so I think. I'm not sure that VR is going to add such a dimension to gaming that it will replace what miniatures does. That being said I think that video games have probably taken a few people that might have come into the hobby, but probably more from the board game wargamers. 3 for me. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2016 6:52 a.m. PST |
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JSchutt | 24 Apr 2016 6:57 a.m. PST |
Photography did not take the place of oil painting…so no…not until the concept of art passes away from our lexicon. |
McWong73 | 24 Apr 2016 7:02 a.m. PST |
Miniatures wargamers know that good against remotes is one thing, good against the living… |
The G Dog | 24 Apr 2016 7:15 a.m. PST |
Yes. We will be reduced to a sad collection of Luddites flailing against the unstoppable wave of technological revolution. Like the guys that insist on playing baseball using 19th Century rules. vbba.org |
myxemail | 24 Apr 2016 7:21 a.m. PST |
Choose your top five. Miniature gaming also has the social aspect in addition to painting and research. Video, visual 3D or virtual reality gaming is mostly solo. Alone. In your mother's basement. |
nazrat | 24 Apr 2016 7:31 a.m. PST |
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RavenscraftCybernetics | 24 Apr 2016 7:35 a.m. PST |
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Frederick | 24 Apr 2016 7:38 a.m. PST |
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dragon6 | 24 Apr 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
Video, visual 3D or virtual reality gaming is mostly solo. Alone. In your mother's basement. it's true that most computer gaming is solo… at least I think so, but there are many groups who meet virtually to game. They have audio, mmediate interaction with friends, or opponents, so that satisfies the social aspect. I think we are a dying breed |
GildasFacit | 24 Apr 2016 8:33 a.m. PST |
Social contact only via a wire and you have the cheek to call us a dying breed. That type of social contact will lead to no damn breeding at all !!! Luddites wanted to stop others progressing because it made their craft lose value and thus condemned them to obscurity and poverty. Can you really apply the same concepts to painting wargaming figures as a hobby ? |
Toronto48 | 24 Apr 2016 8:51 a.m. PST |
No- it's like asking if a projected image will replace real pictures |
PrivateSnafu | 24 Apr 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
Think of this silly possibility. You have a collection of VR miniatures that you virtually painted. Storage problem solved. |
Mako11 | 24 Apr 2016 8:56 a.m. PST |
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Cardinal Ximenez | 24 Apr 2016 9:05 a.m. PST |
Not for me. I like the tactile aspect. DM |
StoneMtnMinis | 24 Apr 2016 9:10 a.m. PST |
I hate to paint(I do a marginal job, but from 3 feet you can tell what they are!), but love the social interaction with friends. And I do enjoy the rare times I win. Dave |
Rubber Suit Theatre | 24 Apr 2016 9:15 a.m. PST |
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jeffreyw3 | 24 Apr 2016 9:53 a.m. PST |
I make my living at video games, but I enjoy the tangible, creative part of miniatures. Beyond having a goal of entertaining, I see little similarity between video and tabletop gaming. |
Jcfrog | 24 Apr 2016 9:58 a.m. PST |
Probably the same question and answers as 20 years ago:"will computer games replace board games?" |
Bashytubits | 24 Apr 2016 10:40 a.m. PST |
That is a silly question, no. |
Doug MSC | 24 Apr 2016 10:43 a.m. PST |
Painting, playing, researching, enjoying the company of friends, learning about History, building armies, moving figures around a beautifully crafted terrain board, developing rules for the game, etc., etc., etc. No replacement for me! I don't know about future generations, but I am happy with what I have today. |
cosmicbank | 24 Apr 2016 11:04 a.m. PST |
3 for me. But I fear it is the future of gaming. Fast and easy like mircowave popcorn. |
Wulfgar | 24 Apr 2016 11:07 a.m. PST |
I tend to think that Winston is right, but with some caveats. We paint because we love the research, the shared time with friends, the tactile, the beautiful, and the new shiny things that only real miniatures games can provide. I love miniature wargaming and its intrinsic rewards. On the other hand, I've pretty much painted what I set out to paint. I know it sounds crazy, but now that I have it, I'm looking to simplify my life a bit by reducing clutter. I'll just blame it on Mari Kondo and her book. As she says, "Does having it bring you joy?" Should I decide to cut my collection to the bare bones, perhaps just one period, probably the Sengoku Jidai, with a few supporting board games, virtual electronic gaming becomes more attractive. For example, on my new iPad, I have all of the Hexwars Napoleonic games which are actually based on old miniatures rules. I can game all of the major battles of the Peninsular War, the American War of 1812, The invasion of Russia, and the Waterloo campaign. The Hexwars games are inexpensive, fun, attractive, no fuss, and all fit on my iPad. So do their numerous ancients games. Its not a bad deal, and I never have to worry about set-up or take-down. A user can merely flip the device open or closed and its done. The downside is that electronic software and devices have a relatively short lifespan. A gamer cannot count on having them for more than a few years. If I were truly foolish enough to part with my all of my miniatures and terrain, I'd regret it. Definitely. I'd also miss the opportunity to play those games with friends. However, if living a simpler life is attractive, then a virtual wargame becomes very cheap and easy to store. That said, I'm grateful for what I have, just looking to alter my life a bit. I'm not sure that having a closet full of stuff means as much to me anymore. ***I should also add that I'm considering a move to Japan to teach English for a few years. Space would obviously be limited, so a virtual game, in that setting, would be a boon. |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2016 11:31 a.m. PST |
Yes – people will be painting the miniatures virtually too, if that is your thing. And having a couple of luddites holding out with old school miniatures does not count as not replacing miniatures gaming. Even though the Amish (simply an example that many in the Northeast know of due to HMGS cons being in Lancaster) still use Horse and Buggy does not mean that the Horse and Buggy has not been replaced by the automobile. |
jwebster | 24 Apr 2016 12:06 p.m. PST |
I started thinking about this the other day and posted something in the "There's hope for all of us?" Topic on painting board I think there is a misunderstanding on what people call Virtual Reality nowadays There are several protypes of glasses that add CGI overlays over what you normally see. So we could have an empty table and the glasses overlay images of a wargame in progress, and could add animations etc. even to boardgames Article from wired magazine link This would not cut out any of the social aspects of gaming I enjoy painting miniatures – maybe that would be replaced by 3D sculpting of miniatures, terrain etc. I don't know John |
Ottoathome | 24 Apr 2016 12:28 p.m. PST |
Oh my God! Winston and have agreed three times this year right down the line, and it's only April! I better check the cellar for pods. |
14Bore | 24 Apr 2016 12:39 p.m. PST |
It might, but they will never experience the joy of painting thousands of figures. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha |
Patrick R | 24 Apr 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
It'll just become another aspect of the hobby as a whole, just like D&D, Hex-based wargames, Magic, Warcraft etc haven't stopped people from playing any of the others. |
warwell | 24 Apr 2016 1:22 p.m. PST |
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Tgerritsen | 24 Apr 2016 1:24 p.m. PST |
Jwebster, What you are talking about is AR, or Augmented Reality. I can see it being a thing, but neither AR or VR will take over the hobby. I've been playing video games since the 1970s and make video games as my day job. Yet I still devote a sizable part of my free time to table top and miniatures gaming. Why? Playing against real people, building a table that looks visually stunning, the tactile joy of picking up and moving the figures about the table. I love playing a video game like Total War Shogun 2 or Wargame Airland Battle, but I also love gaming at various scales on my table top. They vie for my time, but I love them both for very different reasons. I can see AR being more interesting to table top gamers over VR, but either way, they won't take over for table top gaming. |
Tgerritsen | 24 Apr 2016 1:25 p.m. PST |
Oh and Rubber Suit's post reminds me that I have a huge set of Warhammer miniatures somewhere that I really should see about selling. |
darthfozzywig | 24 Apr 2016 1:31 p.m. PST |
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Oberlindes Sol LIC | 24 Apr 2016 1:52 p.m. PST |
Our puny NSFW minis can never hope to compete with VR porn. On the other hand, that's not really wargaming. People still do all sorts of arts and crafts by hand because they enjoy the process and feeling. People still get together to do things because they enjoy being with other people. Will Madden replace actually playing sports, or actually watching sports? I didn't think so. |
Zephyr1 | 24 Apr 2016 2:35 p.m. PST |
Minis will still be there to play with when the electricity goes out… |
Doctor X | 24 Apr 2016 3:04 p.m. PST |
Bashy +1 This is really a video game replacing miniatures question. The answer is still the same as it was in the early 80s when computer games hit the market. No. While many computer games are solo, don't forget console gaming which is far larger and very social. This would appear to be even more of a threat to mini gaming but alas, we are still here and will remain. The fact that you can bet some very obscure products compared to 20 years ago should indicate that there must be money to still be made in mini gaming. Otherwise all those manufacturers would be gone or not even release. |
Mute Bystander | 24 Apr 2016 3:58 p.m. PST |
Let me buy 3D print pre paints in any size/scale and I will celebrate not having to paint miniatures. Along with buying the same army in 3mm, 15mm, probably 25mm, and possibly 6mm depending on era/genre. Of course most of what I am buying now is 1970s OOP figures I could not afford then. I expect to play miniatures games as long as I breathe and function adequately. Pick whatever number seems appropriate, I prefer 13. |
coopman | 24 Apr 2016 4:27 p.m. PST |
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79thPA | 24 Apr 2016 4:34 p.m. PST |
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Yellow Admiral | 25 Apr 2016 9:52 a.m. PST |
VR might remove the last of the "simulation" gamers from miniatures gaming, but already miniatures gaming is as much about collecting, crafting, painting, and diorama building as it is about playing. VR can't really "replace" miniature gaming, since computer simulations and even innovations in board gaming have long since made miniatures into a separate, self-contained hobby with low simulation value. The real reason miniatures gaming survives is because humans love miniature versions of real things that they can fondle and admire, so as long as humans have hands and eyes and like to socialize with other humans, there is a place for this kind of hobby. I think the proliferation of discussions here on TMP and elsewhere about "what rules should I use" and "how to base my miniatures" supports this argument; the collections exist, the owners are looking for a way to play with them. - Ix |
Great War Ace | 26 Apr 2016 6:41 p.m. PST |
I will take this a large step further than most: In the future, near or not so near, but foreseeable, VR will take not only gamers but everyone who enters into it. Living inside the VR "world" will replace the physical world. The body will be merely a venue to keep the brain warm. The brain will be directly hooked to the VR "world". In it, or "there", you can do literally anything that you imagine. All that is required is to construct your "scenario" and there you can go and stay for as long as your brain stays warm. The only wargamers of physically manipulated games and the toys included with them will be those who eschew the VR replacement of their bodies…. |
Wolfhag | 27 Apr 2016 10:46 p.m. PST |
I've implemented AR apps into a tank-infantry game using a cell phone app using Aurasma to enable a player to point his camera at a game icon and have an instructional video or example pop up. Think of it as "just in time" game instructions eliminating the need to page through a rule book. Aurasma also enables interactive screen interface to access PDF rules online. It does not replace any of the miniatures or tabletop terrain, it makes it easier for new players to come up to speed with a set of rules. YouTube link It's so simple even a Marine Grunt can do it. Wolfhag |
christot | 27 Apr 2016 11:30 p.m. PST |
Probably will eventually, VR will be so good, a lot of gamers simply won't see the point of traditional gaming. As for the social aspect….computer games are already played socially- MMOs have thousands of players online simultaneously, often played in social groups rather than solo. Yes, the player is usually alone but he is connected via webcam and private chat channel with his mates, often its a genuine social thing, with players in the same room anyway (relatives, housemates). There will be a few diehards still going, but getting fewer, and manufacturers will decrease. Might take 30 years till the current crop of designers retire, so enjoy it…right now we are living in a golden age for miniature gaming. Sadly, it will end one day. To those naysayers I would point them towards British cavalry officers in the 1920s and 30s who loudly proclaimed that the tank would never totally take over from the horse on the battlefield. I think thats a good analogy. |
(Phil Dutre) | 28 Apr 2016 2:45 a.m. PST |
VR gaming is much more like computer gaming today than it is to miniature wargaming, so I predict not that big of an influence on the current miniature wargaming community. Miniature wargaming is a tactile and analog hobby for a reason. People like to play with toy soldiers, paint them, display them, collect them. I can't see how that will be replaced by VR versions (and I do research in comp graphics, VR and the like, so I'm not a luddite). Sure, if you isolate the gameplay, computers can do some things better. But that's only a slice of what miniature wargaming is about. People who play wargames only for the game, and not the medium, have migrated to computer games 20 years ago. I also don't see why someone today interested wargaming would start in miniature gaming and then migrate to computer versions. The threshold for starting computer gaming is much lower, so probably it's the other way around ;-) One influence that more elaborate computer-based gaming might have is on the rules used in analog games. Games will become more streamlined and elegant, and less based on formulas, table lookups, and the like. Those number-crunching rules – if needed – are better handled by computers, so the rules used for actual miniature gaming might become better focused on the medium of miniatures. |
(Phil Dutre) | 28 Apr 2016 2:56 a.m. PST |
To those naysayers I would point them towards British cavalry officers in the 1920s and 30s who loudly proclaimed that the tank would never totally take over from the horse on the battlefield. I think thats a good analogy. I think it's a bad analogy, because you can as well find many examples that prove exactly the opposite. Conference calls have been in existence since when? The 60s or so? Technology is now such that it is very reliable to have meetings without physically being together (Skype, all sorts of pro services, …). Yet, people (or the companies they work for) still spend huge amounts of money to travel the world in planes or face traffic to physically sit together. Will VR technology have an influence? Sure. Will it replace existing technology? Depends on the application. For miniature gaming, probably not. |
christot | 28 Apr 2016 11:57 a.m. PST |
Its a perfect anology, in 30, 40, 50 years time miniature gamers will still exist..and they will be exactly the same as British cavalrymen are today, a tiny, niche anachronism. Change is rubbish, we humans are generally very bad at dealing with it, I know I am, but it happens, and it will in this instance. Frankly, I couldn't give a toss, i'll be long dead. The pure frightening, mind-boggling PACE of tech change and its capabilities is truly incredible, when I was a kid, a Star trek comminicator was total science fiction, now, its……a fairly rubbish mobile phone (apart from the phaser bit). Tech will replace miniature gaming, not for me or you maybe, but for a child born this morning it will. |
Yellow Admiral | 28 Apr 2016 1:20 p.m. PST |
Its a perfect anology, in 30, 40, 50 years time miniature gamers will still exist..and they will be exactly the same as British cavalrymen are today, a tiny, niche anachronism. And I would say we already are. There are now more gamers in the world than ever. Millions and millions play games on cell phones or gaming consoles, a smaller number play on PC gaming rigs, an even smaller number play board games (itself a heavily sub-divided type of gaming), and only a tiny fraction play with miniatures. Of the miniatures gamers, most seem to play some variation of fantasy or science fiction, and only a tiny niche cadre of us, drawn from a small selection of rich countries, try to play historical wargames with miniatures. Miniatures gaming has already shifted to adapt to this demographic description. As noted previously, miniatures gaming is as much about collecting and socializing and making art projects as it is about gaming. - Ix |
DWilliams | 29 Apr 2016 10:32 a.m. PST |
I'm acquainted with a 20-something aged game designer who has worked for companies like Hasbro. He is absolutely convinced that miniature tabletop gaming has a great future right alongside traditional board games, and other video-oriented and virtual reality games. |
Winston Smith | 29 Apr 2016 5:21 p.m. PST |
As I said earlier, miniature gaming is really several hobbies. Gaming is gaming. Collecting is collecting. There is a huge increase in painting quality in the last 30 years since I won a "best painted army" award in a 30 person Ancients tournament. They are now rather pedestrian looking, and would not earn a second glance. The quality of painting all around has gone up tremendously. This will never go away, the satisfaction of presenting a good looking army that you did yourself on the table. If all you want to do is to set the computer for "Brandywine" without having painted anything, go for it. That is not my hobby. Mine is fighting that battle with figures I or my friends have painted. |