"A quick, inexpensive solution for large fleets" Topic

I'm getting ready to playtest an expanded version of my "Admirals" rules, with a streamlined gunnery resolution system that should allow players to handle larger fleets without producing an overly lengthy game. Since testing a large fleet game would necessarily require large fleets, I was looking at a couple hundred bucks in very small ship miniatures, plus at least several weeks worth of free time to prep. Actually, I would need several, since I want to test the special rules for each tactical era of fighting sail; Early (late renaissance and early Anglo-Dutch), Linear (late Anglo-Dutch through WSS and into mid-18th century) and Late (revolutionary and Napoleonic).

I'm a little impatient to get started. I could have whipped up some counters or flats, but my aesthetic sense was outraged at the mere thought, so I created a set of "2.5D" miniatures. "2.5D" is used by paper modelers to refer to a miniature made from flat, 2D parts, arranged at different angles to create the illusion of a three dimensional model (picture a tree made by placing two flat tree-shapes intersecting at right angles). They're not nearly as nice as actual ship miniatures, but from a distance they're pretty convincing and I can slap together a dozen in the time it would take me to finish one 3D model. Plus, they cost almost nothing to make.

Good enough for playtesting; the real miniatures can come later. More pictures here, if you're interested:

link

Jeff

Those are jolly nice!!

Never mind playtesting. Those are good enough for a convention game.

Any chance you can make those available for us on TMP?

I hadn't really considered it. I think they're a little too fiddly for those who like quick-and-easy, and not really nice enough for those love fighting sail miniatures and don't mind doing the work they require. Doing a proper set of instructions would be more work than designing them was. I'll have to give it some thought.

War Artizen I would love to try a sheet of those.
Very cool!
Clif

You made 56 ships just for playtesting?!?!? Now that's hard core… You're going to need a lot more of those 2' sea tiles.

Are you planning to use the expanded rules with the 1/900 scale ships (eventually), or start over with smaller miniatures for larger battles?

- Ix

You made 56 ships just for playtesting?!?!? Now that's hard core…

Describes me to a "T". Now I need about 60 Napoleonic and about 100 Anglo-Dutch 2.5Ds, just for completeness. One cannot expect to properly playtest an Anglo-Dutch battle with SYW-era ships.

You're going to need a lot more of those 2' sea tiles.

Yes. A lot more. Actually, a whole new set with closer-spaced points and a sea color specially chosen to match the ships' bases.

Color is important. Did you notice how the spaces between the rigging and the sails appear to show the table color through them? They're not cut out . . . that would have made the pieces too flimsy to withstand the necessary handling, not to mention being a major pain in the posterior to cut. I chose a blue that would match the table so that the eye would be fooled into seeing cutout spaces where there are actually solid pieces.

Are you planning to use the expanded rules with the 1/900 scale ships (eventually), or start over with smaller miniatures for larger battles?

Why not both?

'Describes me to a "T".'

My philosophy exactly.

You realise, of course, that we are both totally insane?

^ Based on evidence, just why you're limiting the membership of the asylum to merely two, I have no idea…

These are certainly much simpler than the 1/600 card-and-mdf 74's I tried to make work a while ago. They were just too time-consuming though, and I never succeeded in devising a satisfactory way to close off the sterns without breaking some fundamental laws of geometry.

I'm inspired to have another go now, but in a smaller, less complex form. I don't have much sea-room for big ships in any case!

Those are amazing! You are too modest, I am sure there are lots of us who could only aspire to something which looks that good.

Mollinary

I'm with Bashytubits. A couple of sheets of those, especially for early and late Dutch Wars, would let me whip up fleets for a period I game very rarely and for which I couldn't justify spending big bucks on metal.

LT

Nice – if you worked up some sheets of various sizes of ships for the AWI and Napoleonic Wars, I'd buy them for sure!

Don't tease us. Tell us you take Paypal. : )

Those I great. I would love a set for Napoleonic and Dutch wars.

I'm impressed.

The last time I play tested a miniatures game, my spaceship "models" were 1" x 2" pieces of index cards with the ship name, facing information, and a few critical statistics. Let me say that they did not look cool. At all.

Sign me up! Naps to start, then work your way back in time. :-)

Jeff,

Those are fantastic. They are much more believable than the plastic WizKids Pirates ships that I have accumulated.

Please, please seriously consider making these available, even if you have to charge a fee for them.

Jim

I am with the rest of the crowd. I like them just fine. I would love a coupe of sheets as well for a period I play very rarely.

The paper 2.5D ships are quite nice, but I've got plenty of lead, and what about those rules!!!

Kevin,

About the rules: the expanded edition will be some time in coming yet. Unlike some wargame publishers (which I will not name) I simply cannot bring myself to ask fellow wargamers to pay for something that has not been thoroughly tested before publication. By "thoroughly" I don't mean a couple run-throughs with family members and gaming buddies, but dozens of plays with groups of varying experience in the period, followed by blindtests at the hands of someone knowledgeable about the era, followed yet again by re-tests of the modifications mandated by the blindtesters. This process can sometimes take months, or years.

However, the basic rules, which I have used successfully to run convention games over the last year or so, are available free on the Rules page of my website:

warartisan.com/rules

They are missing much of the flavor and chrome of the expanded edition, but they are fully functional as they stand.

For those of you who have expressed a (surprising) interest in the project: I posted these pictures merely as an illustration of what was possible, not as a teaser. I sincerely thought them not attractive enough to appeal to other gamers . . . an assumption of which I have now been disabused. The files are in a format which would be incomprehensible to anyone but the designer, but your requests have convinced me to give some serious thought to what it would take to make them acceptable to, and usable by, other wargamers.

Jeff

Careful, Jeff, the crowd here did this to me with my 1/600 ships! ;) I've since decided that your 1/900 beauties are the winner as far as larger card models go.

You've certainly inspired me to re-visit that idea though, and look into designing much smaller vessels. Like ColCampbell, I have barrel-loads of the Wizkids Pirates ships, which are great fun, but look a bit… meh.

I didn't think it was possible to make fighting sail in the 25-50mm range that would look the part, but your big-little fleets prove me wrong. Small is beautiful!

Right then, where'd I leave that laser-cutter…?

I made my Wizkids ships look a whole lot better by painting all the white edges to blend in, and making small bits of card to close off the open bows and sterns, and then basing them on sea bases. They look pretty good now.

That is a fantastic idea – I, for one, would by a set.

The files are in a format which would be incomprehensible to anyone but the designer, but your requests have convinced me to give some serious thought to what it would take to make them acceptable to, and usable by, other wargamers.

Can't you just output them in PDF?

I meant graphic format. I wish it was as simple as just saving them in a different file format.

The graphics for different ship types are scattered over several pages and unlabeled, and some of the score lines are missing. The method of construction is not really apparent from just looking at the parts, and I haven't written any instructions (because I didn't need any). Plus, in order to be useful to the majority of naval wargamers, there will have to be multiple nationalities represented, and optional generic bases without the strength stats for "Admirals", which would be meaningless if the ships were being used with other rules. Also, probably a couple other features that haven't occurred to me yet.

Then, since the ones I've already made are distinctly middle-eighteenth-century, I would have to repeat the whole thing with redesigned graphics for Napoleonic era ships, and then again for the 17th century.

I'm especially interested in the streamlined gunnery rules mentioned in the OP. I'll be patient and wait. Keep us apprised.

Please make the ships available.

What a great idea solving the need to have ships without the full compromise of flats. Having purchased some of your other wonderful paper vessels I am happy to give you money for these too!

Earlier you said "I think they're a little too fiddly for those who like quick-and-easy" would you expand on this? The fiddly parts I see are few. Aligning the printouts of the front and back is fixed with alignment holes & pins. The center line rigging is fiddly, but your rigging tutorial is very clear on how to repeatedly successfully accomplish this. Lastly, we are talking about ships of the line and fiddly comes with the territory … err waters.

By "too fiddly" I meant that they're considerably more work than flats. However, they're still a lot less work than 3D models. I have already found that I can assemble dozens of them in the same time it would take me to build a single 3D ship.

Actually they're a little less fiddly than you imagine, Andrew. The front/back alignment is all handled by carefully placed score lines, so that the parts fold up nearly perfectly every time. Even when they're off a little, edge tinting with a marker easily covers up the discrepancies. There are only six pieces to each ship (not counting whatever type of base you want to put them on) but there's still quite a bit of careful knife work needed. I suppose some clever person with the right equipment could figure out how to laser cut these, as has been done with some of my other kits. The rigging is not really necessary; I added it to help keep the masts square, since I expect they will be subjected to a bit of stress during handling. It doesn't hurt that it adds to the visual effect as well.

In any case, I'm currently building a Napoleonic set for a playtest of Aboukir Bay (and after that, naturally, Trafalgar, which I expect to play out in about three hours with only four players), and I'm working out the technical bugs for seventeenth century versions, which have a slightly more challenging profile. If I can make that workable, then a late sixteenth century/Spanish Armada set might be possible.

Finally, if I can come up with a set of instructions that are clear and complete, I may have something anyone could use. Patience, please.

Patience is my middle name … marriage and teenage children have drummed it into me.