"Welsh Spearmen" Topic

I read the following passage about the Welsh spears at Conway in 1295. It is sourced from Nicholas Trivet's Annales, 1845. Reads as a period source.

"The Welsh, on the Earl's approach, set themselves fronting his force with exceeding long spears, which, being suddenly turned toward the Earl and his company, with their ends placed in the earth and their points upward, broke the force of the English cavalry."

So I am wondering was it the norm for the Welsh to use "exceedingly long spears" as it was with the Scots and Flemish? Did the Welsh also use long spears throughout the 1300's and 1400's.

Did the Welsh use similiar deep columns as the Scots and Flemish? Or did they use a more typical shallow, long front spear formations?

Any idea just how long were the Welsh spears-10 ft or greater?

I wish I knew. The Welsh in Edward III's army at Crecy are described by Desmond Seward as "knifemen" (it's been years, and I don't have a copy of his HYW book at the present time, or, I don't know where mine is). The long spears seem to have disappeared. But I think it was Ian Heath's Armies of the Middle Ages that quoted a medieval reference stating that the south Welsh were mostly archers, while the north Welsh were mostly spearmen….

Welsh Infantry 12th-14th centuries

Illustration of a Welshman from a 13th century Latin text of The Laws of Hywel Dda Peniarth 28 (previously dated as 12th century).
Illustrations of Welsh soldiers from Littere Wallie, in Liber A in the Public Record Office
Illustrations of Welshmen from a 14th century Welsh text of The Laws of Hywel Dda NLW MS. 20143A
A Welsh Archer & Spearman in Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 by Ian Heath, based on Littere Wallie in Chapter House Liber A & The Laws of Hywel Dda
A Welsh Spearman in Armies of the Middle Ages, volume 1 by Ian Heath, based on Littere Wallie in Chapter House Liber A

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Jagger, the Scots seem to have gone for lines rather than columns. I can't off hand think of an exception other than the circular schiltroms at Falkirk where, unusually, Wallace opted for a defensive posture.

Giraldus Cambrensis certainly says "very long" spears around 1200.

TMP link

….The Welsh in Edward III's army at Crecy are described by Desmond Seward as "knifemen" (it's been years, and I don't have a copy of his HYW book at the present time, or, I don't know where mine is). The long spears seem to have disappeared…..

That is interesting. You would think the English would want long spears when facing the huge amounts of heavy French cavalry on the continent.

The Welsh in Edward III's army in 1339 were spearmen – "les Galoys ove lour lances"; a plan for an army in 1341 involved 2,000 Welsh with lances (both cited in link )

I suspect they were called "knifemen" because their big knives attracted attention and their ordinary spears didn't, and because they left their spears behind when they went out to knife the French wounded – to cite Ian Heath, "Froissart records that at Crécy Welshmen and Cornishmen (Gallois et Cornouaillois) armed with grands coutilles advanced between the archers and men-at-arms and killed the unhorsed French knights mercilessly"

I doubt the spears would have been pike length.

For a start, the terrain round here wasn't particularly suited to lugging long poles around – hillsdies and forests are not pike friendly.

Secondly, I think there's a medieval record of those spears being thrown at close range.

In our rules we refer to Welsh "spearmen". But the Scots "common army" get "pike and sword". Yet I now realize that in my mind I hold a picture of both kinds of troops with the same length "spear/pike". Hmmm. Neither one gets to be thrown, however….

Knifemen is a misnomer. Deployed as long spearmen as a reaction to English knights. May have used a looser formation due to native terrain. Edward III does not seem to have had much faith in them and may have kept them out of the line at Crecy. Discipline may also have been an issue.

Prominant in English armies of the early Hundred Years War but fade away as archers are found to be more useful (though more expensive).

TomT