"Demonstration Games - What's The Point ?" Topic

Again at Salute there were loads of Demonstration Games. But what is their point ?

Free entry for a few club members ?
Some sort of show off of painting and building skills ?
If they are parading a new range of figures, the manufacturer should be paying for the space.

I would rather these areas were given over to participation games that might encourage gamers old and new.

Simply parading their skills does NOTHING to encourage newcomers, in fact just the opposite …..

I have always said that there is nothing more boring than watching other people play wargames.

Some gamers like to show off their figures and terrain. It's a club ego thing. Some are really nice to look at. As for having the opposite affect of attracting new gamers I would blame the folks running the demo game and not the game. The game is the eye candy that gets someone to look. It then takes a person to engage the viewer in conversation, explaining what is going on, tell about the club and play up the social aspects of being a wargamer in a club that works together to put on a game like that. If your club doesn't have people working the crowd at all times then it can be a put off. However, a couple folks "selling" the crowd on the club can work wonders.

And I wonder what the folks running the game get. It is a lot of work to put on a game, but here in the USA folks get to play and have fun. These games demonstration games look great, but London is a pain to drive in and it is only for a Saturday. Lots of effort for little reward.

Is it a game if no one plays?

It's not unlike going to a plastic model contest, R/C Fly-In, or model railroad convention.

There is value to some (and I count myself in this group) people in appreciating the labor, skill, and artistry exhibited. There is also value, I think, in seeing rules played.

That being said, I've run convention games for years to give others an opportunity to play rules and periods they may not either have enough interest to invest in, or the time put in.

I play in convention games for the same reasons. I also take time to watch games for the reasons I mentioned above.

The bottom line--I see value in both participatory and exhibition games.

P.S.

What is wrong with being proud of you work and wanting to put it on display?

Depends how it is run. Also just participation games means lots of little skirmish games usually sci fi/fantasy and no massed battles, unless they are simple highest dice wins the war type that last 30 minutes.

I would rather watch a massive battle in progress than a couple of noids fight through an ice cream factory!

Some demo games can be a little frustrating, especially if the gamers are more intent on playing than engaging Joe Public. However a well run game can encourage newcomers and remember we are not talking newcomers to the hobby, how many folks venture into Salute not knowing what wargaming is, it is more newcomers to a period/rule set/genre.

Bovington last year is good example of where a well run wargame does bring interest from Joe Public. Certainly our game did not get much gaming done as we were busy speaking to visitors to the museum, including former Warsaw Pact folks (it was a 1986 game) and the GOC 4 (UK) Armd Div (In the mid 80s). A couple of gamers asked for a run through of the rules and carried on playing for a while.

So demo games do encourage people to take an interest,

Tally Ho!

At Enfilade and Tactical Solutions, you could play with someone else's toys. I don't have room for all the terrain for a great game so playing on someone's board is always a pleasure. For instance we had a one-to-one Battle of the Little Big Horn…..

I think all types of games have their place. There were some fabulous large demo games at Salute last weekend and I've come away inspired. It's conceivable that newcomers might also be inspired to take up the hobby having seen such games.

The thing with participation games in the UK is they tend to be necessarily limited in scope and often skirmish or large skirmish type affairs with easy to pick up rules. A show only of such games would be too narrow for my taste.

maybe these games could be called "display gmaes". They do have several positive functions. They are a good discussion point about figures, history and modelling techniques. These functions do not require the game to be "in progress".They are a positive for folks just "having a look" at the hobby. I like to look at them to enjoy the capabilities of others. The downside is that they can be guilty of grabbing all the chairs to put such things as sandwiches upon!

The games that have annoyed me a bit are those that some manufacturers are putting on just to dump rules, scenery and products upon. They book a game table, dump products upon it and never play the game at all.A sort of extension to the trade stand. Saw this at Crisis and Bournemouth show. This is one for organisers to be aware of?

I have never put on a display game but do feel that they are a valid part of the hobby and show. Just an opinion / thought not a fact.

Peter Pig games at shows are always participation without exception. It does of course give us a chance to show ff our products, but it seems a fair trade off (others might think otherwise) Some shows are reluctant to let us put on a participation game as they want the space for more trade; which may become the norm for UK shows? US shows are always pleased to have PP participation games though, thanks.

martin

I like demo games, and appreciate the work and effort it takes to put them together…

And, unlike the Winston, I don't find much difference between watching a game at a convention and playing a game that I either don't know the rules to, or that is simplified to the point where anyone can pick it up in five minutes.

A Saga or FOW tournament--now that's something different.

I have to agree with Winston Smith (oh gawd, I'll never hear the end of that)that most wargames are kind of boring to watch. The one exception is any game run by Mexican Jack Squint (Howard Whitehouse) and for that I'd pay admission to watch.

I appreciate the modeling and terrain crafting that you see in the UK demo games, and some provide inspiration for your own games. However, I would not want to go through all of the time and work to haul a game to a venue, set it up and then stand around and answer questions. I want people to play in my convention games.

My big question about these demo games, is what relationship do they have to the actual games the club plays? When I show up to a club, would I find similar set-ups? Or the back room of a pub with little more than green felt over the table, because they have to be out in ~3hrs…

Ok =then what is the point of a participation game ?? The only difference (beyond the fact that the demo games generally are much better looking) is that there are 4-8 people random people playing the game instead of club members moving the figures .
At least with a demo game it isn't all cluttered with gamer crap (drinks,food, purchases ,etc…)

I have been more inspired ,to try new periods /scales ,by demo games than by any participation game that I have seen.

I am one of the minority at UK shows who goes to play rather than shop so I would always vote for PP games over demo games.

However a well done demo game is well worth a look, much better of course if those putting it on are good at engaging with the public.

What I don't like are static displays. On my one visit to Salute a few years ago there was a massive Napoleonic game manned intermittently by people in period uniforms. To me a total waste of space.

The problem is that some of these "Demonstration"games are actually "Diorama" games – that is, not games being played at all, but just pretty layouts. That isn't wargaming as far as I am concerned.

I think they're great for raising the bar on miniatures and terrain, and inspiring people to make their games look better.

They're probably best when paired with a new range of minis, terrain, or vehicles which you're trying to market, but would be useful for selling news rules sets too.

I happen to prefer party games – especially if they also look great: I have little time for party games (even brilliantly innovative ones) if they look poor.

But the thing is, it – as Timmo said above – it takes all sorts.

Everyone likes something different: that's the point of demo games.

And party games.
And a painting competition.
And reenactors.

I could go on…

John T

As Dave Knight has said he is one of the minority at UK shows.

After seven hours of running a participation Slammers game at salute 2016. Everyone I asked did they want to join in to play for a bit as I know people have time restraints. All I got every time was no sorry to busy looking around or shopping…. even though several came back to take more pictures or ask questions:)

At all the shows I usually run games at less and less have that dreaded word 'time' at hand!

Like JeffreyW3 said I also like demo games for the inspiration and wow factor. Its just as if you went to the model engineer/railway show do you join in "no" you look! At least you don't see the do not touch signs I remembered as a kid!

Cheers Matt

I enjoy looking at the demo games too, they can be quite insiprational and it is always good to chat about toys, terrain, rules and scenarios.

I been involved in running some too, and it is a good club project – everyone gets to chip in and produce something different to a normal club night game.

I usually run participation games these days, and given the nature of UK shows (chat, shop, browse books you are never going to buy) they necessarily have to be short and simple.

If going to an actual games convention, then naturally things are different and you can do some more complex/longer stuff, but UK wargames shows are not games conventions, they are shows.

Why does it not encourage newcomers? how can it have a negative impact on someone entering the hobby?

Why does it not encourage newcomers? how can it have a negative impact on someone entering the hobby?

Beats me…. it's like saying pretty painted miniatures in magazines puts gamers off if they're new and can't paint as well (which I've also heard).

On that basis, what's to point of trying to excel (no pun intended) at anything?

John T

Who knows.

Personally I don't regard it as my job to encourage anyone to do anything, particularly as this is a hobby, not a job. I do it to have fun, and what I regard as fun, other people might regard as mindlessly tedious, trivial or pathetic.

Whatever.

As for more participation games, well, again, it is a hobby not a job, and you can only put stuff on at a show which people offer to do. No-one gets paid for this stuff.

Perhaps if there were skirmish games shows there would be more participation games but to many a war game is a big battle between large armies of thousands or formations of tanks etc which can be difficult to run as a participation game without being over simplistic,

Tally Ho!

I did Cambrai as a participation game, which with 11 divisons on the table was indeed quite large.

But yes, the rules had to be pretty simple (grids, a lot of dice throwing) to keep things moving.

As I said, people don't really go to shows to play long wargames. And games with few pieces are so much more portable – which means, yes you are looking at skirmish of wargame lite for most participation games.

SOTCW put on some pretty big participation games with lots of kit, but again, fairly simple rules.

What is customary is expected and what is expected is welcome and it will change only when expectations change, if they must. If the expectations are not welcome or happy then people will not come and the effort will wane. If there are happy expectations and they are fulfilled the creature will prosper.

The first Partizan of the year at it's new home will be an interesting comparison test of participation v demonstration games. Hammerhead was held in the same venue back in March and had 53 participation games which apparently drew over 1200 people. Partizan has 51 games with 17 of them participation. At the last few Partizan I've attended, especially the Other Partizan in September, there has sometimes been some of the free figures for the first 500 through the door still available at about 12.30-1pm when I've arrived which suggests fewer people attending than there used to be. Partizan in the past has had relatively few participation games so this increase and the reaction should be worth seeing.

I find this definition of "demonstration games" interesting in that it sounds like a way to display a game, yet not actually demonstrate it to a possible customer.

Here in the States it has been my experience that demo games are intended to engage people who haven't yet played a set of rules or models. These are usually free to play (some conventions require a ticket to be paid for in order to play most registered games.) and sometimes are even held at the vendor's very own booth. They aren't so much a group of clubmembers playing and "demonstrating" game play to onlookers, but more a way to get spectators to become players by putting the minis and dice in their hands.

Hammerhead has deliberately focussed on participation games, whereas Partisan deliberately focusses on display games, and has done for years.

Product differentiation and all that.

"The games that have annoyed me a bit are those that some manufacturers are putting on just to dump rules, scenery and products upon. They book a game table, dump products upon it and never play the game at all.A sort of extension to the trade stand. Saw this at Crisis and Bournemouth show. This is one for organisers to be aware of?"

Definitely my pet hate (actually my pet hates it most when I shut its tail in the door).

Demo games can be great, but they have to have something fairly unique, simply putting some stuff on a table and saying "look what we have done/want to sell, aren't we great?" is, at best, simply onanism. Also what you end up with is actually not a game anyway, because no-one plays it, and its not even a particularly good diorama either,
also, try to come up with something a little bit different..endless demo games of the action around La Haye Sainte or Rorkes drift, or Arnhem get old…UNLESS you can put a new angle on it, and that is hard to achieve

A demo game should be: Played (and look exciting to play in), have some unique aspect- be that figures, terrain, rules. Have people involved who can interact with the public. If it doesn't do the above as a bare minimum then don't bother.

They aren't so much a group of clubmembers playing and "demonstrating" game play to onlookers, but more a way to get spectators to become players by putting the minis and dice in their hands.

Getting spectators to play would make them Participation Games here in the UK.

Hammerhead has deliberately focussed on participation games, whereas Partisan deliberately focusses on display games, and has done for years.

Product differentiation and all that.

I think you've slightly missed my point I'm trying to make here. Partizan has always been predominantly demo games, their 'motto' if you like has been to showcase the best of the hobby, and I think that has always been achieved. However over the recent years I've become uneasy about what seems to be a divide between the 'haves' and 'havenots' (for want of a better term of phrase) appearing at shows. The 'haves' are those who are well known in the hobby and can count sculptors, designers, publishers,painters and bloggers even as their friends and acquaintances. They also usually appear to be well heeled, at least when compared with us 'havenots' judging by the size of games and amount of work that has gone into them. As a result they can put on what appear to be very expensive demo games with vast amounts of figures which have been apparently painted by others (I know this isn't always the case but this is how it appears to a 'havenot' like me)with their invited friends and acquiantances joining in, and having a jolly old time whilst virtually ignoring the 'havenots' circulating around them. The 'havenots' are those of us who have gone to the show to make purchases, admire said games, and hope one day to actually be able to possibly join in all this 'fun' that others are shamelessly having, either by invitation or through participation games. I think this is what made Hammerhead such a hit. For years the hordes of 'havenots' have been waiting for something like this to happen, a swing away from the predominance of demo games to something of a more balanced approach. Partizan has never had a very high ratio of participation to demo games in the past, partly due to space restrictions, and partly because of their 'motto' I guess? Given the extra space at Newark Showground it is a welcome change to see the participation side of the show expand from a handful of games to 17 this year, and hopefully it will continue to grow.There is a need for demo games I fully understand, but demo games that are more inclusive to everyone else and not just a 'games with my mates' type scenario which has seemed to appear in recent times. This might seem like some kind of petty jealousy to some, I can assure you it isn't, I just think there are many of us who would prefer the experience of a show to be more inclusive and less exclusive.
I'll stand by for the flak I'm going to take now.

I agree with Volleyfire.

I've put on participation games for several years at various shows, and while it's hard work, watching new people get a kick out of a game is rewarding.

At Salute I spent as much time playing as I did shopping, and didn't even look at the tables filled with painted figures supplied by the 'Haves'.

I expect to do more shows that way in the future.

Volleyfire-

You'd love it here in the States. Many 'Haves' deliberately create games for the 'Havenots' to play in and enjoy. Certainly that's the way I as introduced to he hobby and I have tried to pay it forward and continue the tradition. I do paint almost all of own figures though;-)

"There is a need for demo games I fully understand, but demo games that are more inclusive to everyone else and not just a 'games with my mates' type scenario which has seemed to appear in recent times."

"Bovington last year is good example of where a well run wargame does bring interest from Joe Public. Certainly our game did not get much gaming done as we were busy speaking to visitors to the museum"

As I said above, it depends very much on those putting on the game!

Tally Ho!

Nick T had to fly out of the country very early the day of Salute, so a scratch team was organised, with help from Christian, Nick from Sabre Squadron, Ian A from Heroics and Ros, Alex – member of the public subjected to Stockholm syndrome by us, and myself. Met Greg, talked to loads of people, on feet most of the day but very enjoyable,

Tally Ho!

I am strongly of the view that the overwhelming number of purchasers of wargame figures are not wargamers but collectors, and their sedentary collections ensure that gamers have a steady supply of new products. So the large, sometimes static displays or eye candy at shows attract great interest and support the hobby of the silent majority. Even so their must be engagement with the public.

"What's the point of demonstration games?"
In short: some people like them (whilst others don't.)

You might equally well ask any of the following:-

What's the point of……

….traders selling stuff I'm not personally interested in?
….periods I don't play?
….wargames shows?
….other people's hobbies?

the answer to all these questions is the same….. some people like them (whilst others don't.)

I don't see the point of demo games either. Probably because they're usually run by those with poor communication skills.

I don't wholly buy into the "participation games must be skirmish games" mindset either. A lot are but it doesn't have to be that way. In America, everything is a participation game at shows; if they can put on a bigger battle and have people drop in to play then it can be done. Hammerhead's reputation grows with each passing year; I think the organisers understand the very limited appeal of the demo game and have gone a long way to promote participation games at shows.

A common complaint with many shows is that they die off after lunchtime. Attendees have seen the demo games, they've spent their money so they go home early. More participation games would go a long way to keep a show lively if people hung around to play more games.

So, in short, all shows should have more than half the total number of games run as participation games at least.

I've been involved with both demo and participation games at wargames shows; BMSS shows (for model soldier builders/collectors); and general collectors' fairs (for people collecting anything from stamps to Ty Beanie Babes My Little Pony models !!!)

We always had far more interest in the games at non-wargames events. We even got the late, great Rik Mayall interested in an Old West shoot-out.

Not sure what this says about the psychology of gamers, the general public or even actors, but perhaps those wanting to 'promote the hobby' might consider the opportunities extend beyond 'preaching to the converted' at wargames shows. Just a thought.

Well guys I'm pleasantly surprised and greatly heartened by the reaction to my little post earlier. To be perfectly honest I fully expected people to come crawling out the woodwork slating me for what I wrote. If nothing I thought it would provoke some debate, which it has done and that is encouraging. That so many comments were positive and along the lines of what I was saying is encouraging, and it is heartwarming to see that people out there want the hobby to flourish.and are prepared to think along the lines which help it to do so. I particularly like the suggestion of ubercommando that the ratio of participation games to demo games should be in favour of participation.

If any of you attended Hammerhead you can't fail to have noticed two things. Firstly the table top sale which kept people hooked all day until about 3pm when the number of sellers finally began to tail off. There was a healthy crowd around the tables all day, especially when the hour was up and the traders changed places. Secondly, the show carried on buzzing right up until 3pm and the prize draw(which sadly was when I had to leave as work beckoned)and that can only be a good thing as it encourages people to not only stay and enjoy themselves for longer but also the spending on the trade stands continued for longer. Enjoyment is what a day out should be all about, and you could see a lot of ordinary people who simply want to enjoy their hobby to the max having a real ball.More power to the participation gamers elbow.

At Hammerhead, we were running the party game "Anything can happen in the next half hour" (Stingray) up until 20 minutes or so before the show shut at 5, as I recall, having played 9 games during the day.

The show was, as I recall, busy to the end.

I think our last game of "Savage Dove" – the Star Trek party game at Salute – ended around 4. Exhaustion just sets in!

John T