Joe Legan | 18 Apr 2016 4:14 p.m. PST |
I realize there are several version of this vehicle but am interested in knowing the armored thickness for my games in Somalia and Afghanistan. I have tried and failed with my googlefu! Thanks Joe |
Sundance | 18 Apr 2016 5:13 p.m. PST |
The unarmored Humvees, not much – maybe a couple or three millimeters. I'm guessing the armor kits brought the total thickness at 5 to 7 or 8 mm. The up armors, I'm not sure, but just thinking off the top of my head maybe 7 to 10 mm. The point of the up armors is to protect from small arms fire – it's only designed to protect from shrapnel and 7.62 fire. I only crawl around in the blasted things every month. |
Mako11 | 18 Apr 2016 5:30 p.m. PST |
Yea, probably the equivalent of a cardboard box, other than for the Kevlar and/or armored windows (assuming they have the latter), which would protect against small arms fire, and HE/IED fragments, but not against the bombs themselves. |
LostPict | 18 Apr 2016 5:55 p.m. PST |
This is bit like asking how thick the armor was on a Sherman tank in '44 – both difficult to define and operationally useful to an active enemy. In my Iraq experience, usually it was enough, but far too often not sufficient. For a game system, I would treat as light mobile pillboxes that are susceptible to high angle fire in an urban setting since they usually have open turret rings. |
Major B | 18 Apr 2016 6:39 p.m. PST |
For the up-armored version the armor was good against small arms fire and shrapnel as noted. But there was no armor whatsoever underneath. Just the floor pan. (2006-2007). The earlier version with the metal box on the back (we called them turtles) had less armor. (we had a couple of them – we stopped using them after one hit an IED that took the front off of it). |
Apache 6 | 18 Apr 2016 6:47 p.m. PST |
I'm assuming you are asking about US usage? You could write a rather long book on that subject and there would be huge variations over the ten+ years of US involvment in Afghanistan. Here's a link that has a lot of good photos and explanation link I don't have actual measurments but will attempt to give you real world effects. Prior to 2001 most HMMWVs were unarmored. The weapons carrier vehicles were armored with kevlar. They would stop shell fragments, pistol and shotgun rounds and 7.62 x 39mm (Ak-47/AKM round) An automatic burst from an Ak-47 could defeat the armor at point blank range. They would not reliably stop most other rifle or LMG rounds unless at close range. Often the threat was mines and IEDs, so vehicles tended to get mine resistant kits earlier. Starting around 2002-2003 in Iraq you started to see field expedient armor, which was very often made out of 1/4 armored plate. That carried over quickly to Afghanistan but the threat was not as large at first. There were huge variation by service (US Army or USMC), and unit. Some units used kevlar blankets extensively. Many Marine units received "Rhinoliner" 'spray on bedliner' material that worked surprisingly well in lessing the effects of direct fire and explosions. Around 2004, purpose made retrofit kits as well as the M1114 uparmored vehicles started reaching units. Several variants of purpose produced armor were made and shipped into theater as the production of M1114s could not meet demand. The purpose build kits included air conditioning units, which were not a luxury item, but required to make driving in a highly contained unit tolerable. The M1114 and later uparmor kits were proof against small arms and HMG fire. They even had effective flame suppression systems. |
Joe Legan | 19 Apr 2016 7:30 a.m. PST |
Thank you for all the info. I thought it could protect against small arms. In reading Osprey's "Gothic Serpent" I was surprised that the US lost only 2 HUMVEES to RPGs (I assume it was to RPGs, the book doesn't state) with the Somalis appearing to have so many. Thanks again for the insights. Joe |
Legion 4 | 19 Apr 2016 8:07 a.m. PST |
I was going to add … from what I remember … armored thickness of HUMVEEs … Not Much. Of course I was on active duty when the US ARMY phased out the M151 to the HMMWV … And the M151 had no armor … so … Also as it turned out in the reality of the battlefield, the HMMWV became a "maid of all work". Which it was not what it really was designed for, generally. However, as it is often said, "you go to war with the army you have" … |
Great War Ace | 19 Apr 2016 8:39 a.m. PST |
My son, returned from six months in Baghdad (this was years ago) with the Marines, said that it was "criminal" how poorly designed the armor of a Humvee was. The risk of planted bombs was great because they were particularly vulnerable from underneath. And that's all I "know"…. |
Lion in the Stars | 19 Apr 2016 10:15 a.m. PST |
Thank you for all the info. I thought it could protect against small arms. In reading Osprey's "Gothic Serpent" I was surprised that the US lost only 2 HUMVEES to RPGs (I assume it was to RPGs, the book doesn't state) with the Somalis appearing to have so many. The Somalis (and other insurgents) need to remember to take the safing pin out of the warhead. Saw pics of a Humvee with an RPG warhead lodged in the side mirror, with the safing pin still clearly present. |
Legion 4 | 19 Apr 2016 3:21 p.m. PST |
they were particularly vulnerable from underneath. Yes … it's "flat" on the bottom. And it takes the entire IED blasts. As opposed to MRAP type vehicles which have "V" shaped undercarriage. Which helps with the blast being "deflected" up/out. IIRC, the South Africans and IDF have been using the "V" undercarriage on some of their vehicles for decades. Too bad someone didn't think about that when designing the HMMWV. I mean who would have thought that on the battlefield that you wouldn't run into land mines, booby traps/IEDs, etc. ? The MRAPs had some problems too I understand. But not being particularly fragile when hitting an IED didn't appear to be one of them. On the other hand, you hit a big enough IED, it's pretty much going to be game over anyway … sad to say … The Somalis (and other insurgents) need to remember to take the safing pin out of the warhead. I saw that too. It's like little cotter pin, IIRC. So if you drop the RPG round it does not go off. But a very simple design like much of the Russian equipment. However, yes, you have to remove the pin before firing … If you want to get the "full" effect … |
Apache 6 | 19 Apr 2016 8:14 p.m. PST |
During the march to Baghdad, I'd guess 20% of the RPGs shot at us turned out to be duds. A very large percentage of them still had the safety in it. We also saw some very erratic flight patterns, like 'corkscrewing.' Our EOD techs thought it was because they had improperly stored the rocket motors and they had absorbed moisture. One AAVP-7 ended up running over a RPG gunner who stepped in the middle of the road to fire an RPG, the round glanced off the lower front armor leaving a paint smear on the armor and did not detonate. Annother vehicle was hit by a dud which 'caught' in the applique armor. It was not discovered until dawn the next morning after about a 30 kilometer advance. |
LostPict | 20 Apr 2016 7:11 a.m. PST |
A lot of this also depends upon the IEDs and how they are positioned and detonated. I was based out of Camp Slayer in Baghdad in 2006 supporting MND-Baghdad. We lost the crew of one HUMVEE to three artillery shells buried in the middle of the road in a complex attack. Nothing recognizable left but the engine block. I suspect that would have destroyed any vehicle in the inventory. I went on some missions out of a FOB south of Baghdad that had a very disturbing vehicle graveyard just inside the wire with multiple Humvees, Bradley's and Abrams awaiting salvage each with varying sized round punctures from particularly nasty IEDs. Not very reassuring as we mounted our "up-armored" Humvees and went on patrol. I was glad when Catfish Air gave me a ride back to calm Baghdad after a week in that place. |
Legion 4 | 20 Apr 2016 7:26 a.m. PST |
Good intel guys ! Yes, no surprise that the rounds may have been not stored properly … Maintenance, etc., does not appear to be the locals strong suit. Which is good for the West, etc. ! Yes, I understand … a big enough IED will take out anything … Unfortunately … |