"Hanoverian Liebfahne" Topic
6 Posts
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Rod MacArthur | 17 Apr 2016 7:26 a.m. PST |
The Hanoverian Liebfahne, or Colonel's Colour, was the same for all Regiments, however I am confused as to the Obverse and Reverse patterns. The Obverse of a flag is the front, as seen with the flagpole on the left, and the Reverse is the back. The illustrations in Project SYW and at the top of Page 25 of Stephen Summerfield's "Hanoverian Army of the Seven Years War", both show the Obverse with a Hanoverian white horse, within a garter, with lion and unicorn supporters. The Reverse is a Royal coat of arms, in a garter, with lion and unicorn supporters. Stephen Summerfield's book (page 25) then describes both sides of the flag, but his description of Obverse and Reverse is the opposite way round to the illustration. There is a Knotel print of the Hanvoverian Guards attacking, with the Liebfahne clearly visible in the background. This appears both in the Project SYW website and also in the Histoire & Collections book "Fontenoy" (page 39). This shows the Reverse of the flag as the Royal coat of arms, which is correct according to the illustrations mentioned above. However in Stephen Summerfield's book, there is a picture (on page 25) of an Officer of Inf Bn 3B Druchtleben, with a Liebfahne. This shows the Obverse as the Royal coat of arms. The print has not been inverted, since he is wearing his sash and sword correctly. So which is correct, the flag illustrations (the same in both Stephen Summerfield's book and Project SYW) and the Knotel print, showing the Obverse with a Hanoverian white horse, or Stephen Summerfield's written description and the Druchtleben print, showing the Obverse with a Royal coat of arms? Rod |
crogge1757 | 17 Apr 2016 10:54 a.m. PST |
Rod, The "Royal" Arms should be found on the right / obverse side of the flag, while the arms of "Ducal" Hanover should be seen on the reverse side (left). This being the accepted custom these days. Right is ranking No1 while left is second to No1. That being the general rule. Same applies for the House of Austria with the Imperial Arms of Franz Stephan of Lorrraine and Toscany seen on the obverse side while the the Royal Arms of the House of Habsburg-Austria (Maria Theresia) seen on the left or reverse side. Your question isn't all so odd, as the sources covering the uniforms of the Hanoverian Army are found with poor wording here. Summerfield may have got trapped here as a result of the somewhat lousy work done before. Cheers, Christian |
Rod MacArthur | 17 Apr 2016 1:24 p.m. PST |
Christian, Well if you are right, then the picture of both sides of the Liebfahne in Project SYW is wrong, the similar illustration in Stephen Somerfield's book is wrong and Knotel is wrong. All of those show the Royal Coat of Arms on the Reverse. It is only Stephen Somefield's description and the Dructleben print which show the Royal Coat of Arms on the Obverse. I had assumed the error was the other way around. Rod |
Rod MacArthur | 17 Apr 2016 2:38 p.m. PST |
Christian, Looking again, I note that almost all of the the Hanoverian Cavalry Standards follow the pattern you describe, with the "senior" image on the Obverse (right) and other images on the Reverse (left). The only exception is the Squadron standards of 8th Dragoon Regiment. Putting the senior image on the right is certainly logical, so perhaps some of the illustrations in the various books and on-line resources are wrong. Fortunately, if I am modelling them, it is easy for me to correct that. Rod |
crogge1757 | 18 Apr 2016 6:24 a.m. PST |
Rod, Hold it a minute. I checked Kronoskaf Hannover infantry flags and – refering to the illustrations done by Dietmar Redding – this is the way I meant to say. Royal arms are shown on the right side – i.e. the side that is facing to the direction as to were the right wing of your line is placed. Illustrated it is seen on the left with the pole being on the right. Now , don't pin me down on the right wording here. I'm left handed, so I might get it all twisted about. Sorry for causing confusion. This wasn't my intention. Cheers, Christian |
Rod MacArthur | 18 Apr 2016 7:33 a.m. PST |
Oh well, I am still confused. In modern western terminology the front of a flag is the Obverse (that is the side to the right of the flagpole, as you look at it). The rear of the flag is the Reverse (that is the side to the left of the flagpole, as you look at it). Some non-western countries reverse that definition, particularly countries with Islamic writing on their flags, since that goes from right to left. Most of the illustrations of flags on the outstanding Project SYW website and Stephen Summmerfield's excellent book are modern interpretations, so errors might have crept in. There is however a difference between the depiction of Hanoverian Liebfahne in two old prints, the Knotel one of the Hanoverian Guard, and one of the Druchtleben Regiment (in Stephen's book) which show the Royal Coat of Arms on the Reverse (Knotel) and Obverse (Druchtleben). The modern depiction of a Liebfahne (as Reverse, Flagpole and Obverse) on the Project SYW website and Stephen's book are identical, but Stephen's text describes the Obverse and Reverse the opposite way round to the actual illustration. Still not sure which is correct. Rod |
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