Tango01 | 15 Apr 2016 9:54 p.m. PST |
"The Coast Guard spends much more time thinking about how to keep ships from sinking, than it does about how to sink them. But because the Coast Guard is tasked with maritime security and because of the potential for terrorists using a ship as a means of attack, the question has become relevant. It becomes important when you consider, is the Coast Guard adequately armed for its missions. I've mentioned several times that I don't believe the 57 mm gun is adequate to stop a medium to large ship being used as a weapon. I'll try to explain why I have reached that conclusion and offer some examples. Stopping–keeping it from reaching the target–rather than sinking a ship is probably more the relevant criteria, but generally ships don't sink rapidly, particularly if you are trying to do it with a gun, so almost inevitably it is necessary to do enough damage to ultimately sink the ship if you are going to stop it in a timely fashion. Many of the ships that I will talk about continued to fight on for over an hour after the first hits were registered. Think of sinking a close surrogate for stopping a ship before it reaches its objective. There are of course many examples of ships either surviving grievous attacks or alternately ships sink after a single hit. What it takes to sink a ship is highly variable and at best probabilistic. Its highly dependent upon ship design and preparation, but the most important variable seems to be size…" Full article here link Amicalement Armand |
Blount | 16 Apr 2016 6:29 a.m. PST |
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79thPA | 16 Apr 2016 6:39 a.m. PST |
A big hole below the waterline? |
paulgenna | 16 Apr 2016 7:29 a.m. PST |
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Robert666 | 16 Apr 2016 8:16 a.m. PST |
Its floatation capabilities have to be exceeded. |
79thPA | 16 Apr 2016 8:43 a.m. PST |
That means all of the hull boxes have been checked off, right? |
TMPWargamerabbit | 16 Apr 2016 8:49 a.m. PST |
If the "pop" gun or small missiles isn't doing the job and you really need to stop the forward progress of a ship….. think terrorist attack scenario…. put the helm over, brace for impact, and ram the engine room region of the target vessel square on. That will stop any ship of any size. Flooded engine room and the combined ship mass drag on the ocean will stop both in very short order. Then, like the old days of sail…. give command for "Boarders away"! |
charared | 16 Apr 2016 9:53 a.m. PST |
… Icebergs and Arrogance!!! |
Extra Crispy | 16 Apr 2016 10:45 a.m. PST |
Using a ship seems like a particularly bad idea. You actually need to know how to steer and man them. I would guess a crew knowing the situation might refuse to cooperate since they're dead either way. There's just a lot easier ways to move a weapon. Plus ports tend to be pretty wide open and somewhat low population density. You'll smash a shitload of cranes but not too many high rises. I wouldn't ignore the threat but I'd definitely put it as a lower risk problem to solve. A 19' Bayliner with a dirty bomb though would keep me up nights. |
Tango01 | 16 Apr 2016 11:02 a.m. PST |
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Disco Joe | 16 Apr 2016 2:01 p.m. PST |
It definitely is loose lips. |
Navy Fower Wun Seven | 16 Apr 2016 4:01 p.m. PST |
Fire and smoke won't sink a ship but they will force the crew to abandon it or die quickly from poisoning – arsenic etc in the conduits, control lines, furnishing etc. Its worth remembering too that all those old warships filmed being struck by missiles in tests have had teams of experts making them as tough as possible – not only are they closed down to Zulu Alpha, but all hatches and openings are welded shut, and of course they are not carrying fuel and munitions like an operational ship would be. |
goragrad | 16 Apr 2016 11:29 p.m. PST |
Another consideration on those test sinks was whether they were under way – opening a hole at or below waterline forward when a ship is underway at some speed is rather different than doing so when it is at rest. My consideration of that piece was that in the context of the Coast Guard stopping a ship being used for a possible terrorist attack, the damage analysis focused too much on historical damage to warships. And as noted in the comment on the original article on warships that carried more armor and were constructed differently than comparable modern ships. Haven't looked specifically at modern freighters, but I would expect the terrorist to use a medium size freighter. Therefore I would have looked at more closely at what it took to sink one of those. Then there is the potential terrorist thinking ahead and emulating the Q ships by filling the holds with ping pong balls or empty oil drums. |
Fatman | 17 Apr 2016 10:18 a.m. PST |
Water next question. Fatman |
Lion in the Stars | 17 Apr 2016 5:52 p.m. PST |
Nothing beats a 21" torpedo under the keel. Pretty much guaranteed to turn anything under 800 feet long into an oil slick in minutes. It's also worth noting that modern merchies have crappy watertight integrity compared to a warship. Large cargo holds without watertight bulkheads to contain flooding mean dead ships even without breaking the keel. |
Murvihill | 18 Apr 2016 10:23 a.m. PST |
The scenario presented (preventing a rogue ship from performing a suicide attack: "I've mentioned several times that I don't believe the 57 mm gun is adequate to stop a medium to large ship being used as a weapon.") doesn't require the ship to actually sink, you only need to prevent it from being accurately guided. To that end a 57mm auto-firing on the bridge would seem a pretty effective tactic. Mk 46 torpedoes would complement the gun capabilities nicely, as would heliborne ASM's. |
Lion in the Stars | 19 Apr 2016 10:27 a.m. PST |
Ships don't really turn quickly. Or stop quickly. Stopping distance of an oil tanker or similar-sized container ship, even with an emergency backing order, is measured in multiple miles. And a port is a large area, for the most part. Pearl Harbor is pretty tight, Seattle and San Fran are almost as bad, but most of the East Coast has easily-accessible ports with wide-open approaches. The best way to stop a merchant ship without sinking it would be to hose the bridge with gunfire and drop a platoon of boarders on it. |