forwardmarchstudios | 15 Apr 2016 12:01 p.m. PST |
Hi all, I'm curious what table top depth is about the maximum that you have seen used at a convention. I'm about to knock out a really big mat for black powder period games (or really any period). I was thinking of making it 8' across, which is somewhat oversized but seems like it would be do-able, and certainly impressive. I'm worried that it might be too deep, and I've seen some posts where people say 6' is about the maximum for a single table. I was wondering if anyone has any has played on a table wider than 6' and how it worked. Thanks! |
JimDuncanUK | 15 Apr 2016 12:05 p.m. PST |
Most wargamers can't reach further across the table than 3 feet so 6 foot wide is a generally accepted maximum width. However if you are considering recruiting players from the local basketball team then you might get away with a bit wider. I usually use a cloth that is wider than the table and let it drape over the edge. Am not sure if your 'mat' would be flexible enough to do so. |
John the Greater | 15 Apr 2016 12:09 p.m. PST |
I usually prefer 5 x 10 feet. I have a cloth that drapes over the edge, like Jim does, and I use huge clips to hold it in place. I have seen a few really huge tables. Given the girth of some gamers, it would be dangerous to have them leaning over and bracing themselves on the table. |
Schogun | 15 Apr 2016 12:24 p.m. PST |
I keep table width to 5 ft if possible. 6 ft means people are leaning over way more and their guts mashing whatever's at the edge. |
Saber6 | 15 Apr 2016 12:25 p.m. PST |
"standard" conference tables are @ 2.5 feet wide, so 2 side by side (5 feet) is what I plan for. |
ACWBill | 15 Apr 2016 12:30 p.m. PST |
Six feet is usually the widest across which a grown man can reach comfortably. There are exceptionally tall and some a bit shorter that fit outside this limit, however, most of average height fit well within this norm. B |
Timmo uk | 15 Apr 2016 12:41 p.m. PST |
5ft for comfort and model safety for everybody, 6' if you are all taller than average. Often the fighting bit happens roughly at the limit of many peoples' reach and positioning units precisely can get a bit difficult. More so if you are also trying to hold in your middle so as not to squash units at the table edge. I used to play with a group that had 1' square terrain modules and we had a rolling battlefield – it worked well but the terrain was pretty basic and shifting the mass was a bit of a tricky operation. |
leidang | 15 Apr 2016 12:46 p.m. PST |
6 ft is about the max. 5ft is more comfortable |
Rich Bliss | 15 Apr 2016 12:57 p.m. PST |
I usually plan cloths that are 6x9. That way they drape a bit on the edges but can accommodate a wider table if available. |
McKinstry | 15 Apr 2016 1:03 p.m. PST |
I agree that 5' is ideal but 6' can be managed. Wider than that and the middle becomes No Mans Land or the vast slaughter/bending of miniatures by the classic gamer bulge takes its ugly toll. |
robert piepenbrink | 15 Apr 2016 1:11 p.m. PST |
I've played on 7'x22' back in the 60's and 70's. Then it was very awkward. Today, don't exceed 6' width. You really, REALLY don't want today's standard wargamer crawling or standing on your table, and I have my doubts about lowering one from the ceiling joists. It's not rocket science. Figure the wargamer can reach 3', so the maximum depth is 6'. He also takes up 2 1/2' to 3', and if you space them any closer than that, it will not be a pleasant experience. (Four feet may be better.) And if the wargamer has to handle stands smaller than about 3/4" or 20mm on a side, you'll have another set of troubles. The first rule of game design should be to remember the game will be played by human beings. People keep forgetting this. Hmm. If you're hard up, what I've seen done and does work is to offset tables like a runic S. Take two 4x6 tables, the 6' length being east-west, and shove the southern table two feet east. This can give you a surprising amount of depth in mid-board without any portion being more than 3' from an edge. But don't try to exceed the 3' reach until you have orangutans ready for tactical command. |
Doug MSC | 15 Apr 2016 1:36 p.m. PST |
I use 2 1/2 foot folding tables, butting them together giving me a 5 foot wide playing surface. tables are 5 foot long so butting 6 tables together gives us a 5x15 foot gaming space. It works out very well and no one has to lean on the table. Ours is set up permanently and have coverings hanging over the front and sides of the table so we can store terrain pieces underneath. |
Long Valley Gamer | 15 Apr 2016 2:19 p.m. PST |
6ft is fine! Remember.if you have the choice I would want the maximum width for obvious reasons. Been playing on a 6x15ft table for 30 years with all sizes of people. No problem… |
forwardmarchstudios | 15 Apr 2016 2:23 p.m. PST |
Hmm. It seems like my 8 ft table might cause some problems… 6 is easy because my test patch is 6' x 4'. I could just put four or five of them size by side. That'd be fairly simple I suppose…. I think 8' would be doable but maybe not at a convention. Only under perfect circumstances.. |
robert piepenbrink | 15 Apr 2016 3:24 p.m. PST |
Do everyone involved a favor, and don't have people sign up to spend half a day at a convention for a table (or game) that you "think would be doable." At the least, set up the table and do a solo run-through of the rules, to make sure you have everything, it's reachable, and you got the math more or less right. I once signed on for a game to find out that, between the troop quality penalty and the protection factor of the fence, it was mathematically impossible for the besiegers ever to score a hit on the people they were supposed to be shooting at. Another featured an objective so far away it couldn't have taken it by game end if there had been no opposition. "Should be doable" for solo gaming, please. The standard for conventions should be "I've tried it and it works." |
Stryderg | 15 Apr 2016 4:37 p.m. PST |
I've played a zombie crawl on one that was 8x8. There were 15 people playing at the same time, so it was manageable. The groups on this side kept to this side and the groups on the other side kept to their side. The middle was filled with dense buildings, so nobody wanted to go there anyway. |
darthfozzywig | 15 Apr 2016 6:35 p.m. PST |
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forwardmarchstudios | 15 Apr 2016 7:28 p.m. PST |
Does anyone remember the gigantic Black Powder game at HCon in King of Prussia a few years back (about 5). It was Brits v. French and the guys running it had these flashing light smoke markers. The game looked great, but I recall the table being especially large. Likewise, isn't there an 8' deep table in the Black Powder book? It is looking like 6' may be the way to go here, however. And of course, if I ever do get a proper convention game together I'll definitely play-test the scenario thoroughly before subjecting anyone to it. I'll be bringing my stuff to HCon this summer but it'll be for informal games only, and to set up and show off in general. |
Early morning writer | 15 Apr 2016 9:55 p.m. PST |
I've shifted to 4' width – 4 1/2' at conventions. Easier for all to reach across and the action – the whole freakin' point, after all – arrives much faster. And make sure every planned for player is involved from the beginning and has something to do every turn – unless they choose otherwise. Big, big turn off to sit and wait to do something. Great way to watch players wander away and not come back. 6' can work but avoid it if you can. Exception? I did a large 15 mm pirate game with a "12' wide table" but it was really two 6' wide tables with a wide aisle between them so we could play on all sides. And I tried to keep the land closer to the edge. |
forwardmarchstudios | 15 Apr 2016 10:18 p.m. PST |
Hmm. An interesting alternative would be to go 12' deep but break it into 3 boards, one middle battleground board and two back boards. Then, between rounds we move all three sections together to take photos of the full 18' x 12' monster. Fortunately burlap is cheap-as-chips, as they say. That's only run me $30 USD for the cloth…. But, I understand as far as players getting board goes. I'm hoping that the novelty factor will keep them interested. It's not every day you get to play a game that tries to show an entire battle with correct ground scale. Plus, at first at least, it'll just be me and my buddies playing. Some sort of custom made tournament rules may be in order otherwise…. EDIT: I'm 6' and I can reach 4' out my table at the most to put something down. I'm thinking 7' might work. Some testing will be needed to figure this out, for sure. |
Bosco05 | 16 Apr 2016 3:19 a.m. PST |
6' is the widest I would recommend and keep the table top no higher than 30 inches from the ground. 5' is the ideal but I built all my terrain panels in 2x4 sections! One thing to bear in mind with six feet widths is to get a "clear zone" of about 3-4 inches around the table whenever possible. Some players can squish the scenery with their gamer physics as they reach across. I may resemble that remark. Just remember that you will have all sizes and some with physical impairments at a con game and you want them all to feel comfortable playing your game. |
olicana | 16 Apr 2016 3:44 a.m. PST |
6' is the generally excepted maximum but I have a friend who used a series of 6'6" tall doors laid side by side and that works OK for me, and I'm only 5'8" tall; I wouldn't go more than that though. |
Mike Mayes | 16 Apr 2016 4:29 a.m. PST |
We could steal some ideas from model railroaders. For instance, I am contemplating a 13 foot wide battlefield where the middle is a 3-foot ride river – a walkway with removable bridges. Mike |
Lee Brilleaux | 16 Apr 2016 6:53 a.m. PST |
I read this discussion as – OP: I think an 8 foot wide table is possible. Everyone else: No, that's much too wide. OP: I'm tall, so I can reach the middle. |
forwardmarchstudios | 16 Apr 2016 9:04 a.m. PST |
Ok, so more good points. The bodily habitus issue must needs be born in mind. It appears 6 foot is the maximum for a con, and maybe even a bit smaller. Having a ledge to place stuff on is always useful as well. The gigantic version will have to be reserved for special affairs. |
Garryowen | 16 Apr 2016 12:28 p.m. PST |
I have a 7' deep table. I wish I had gone with 6.5'. I am 5"10" and can just barely reach the middle of the 7'. However, it is not only a question of height, but also girth. Fortunately I am thin. One guy who no longer games at my house once said he has too much stomach to reach the center even though he is as tall as I am. Tom |
Yellow Admiral | 16 Apr 2016 1:26 p.m. PST |
Since you're moving to SF, I imagine the local conventions are the ones you're most likely to attend. The standard tables are 6'x2.5', so typical gaming table sizes are 5'x6' or 6'xN (where N is the larger multiple of 2.5' the GM requested). I usually request 6'x10'. The Kublacon hotel also has lots of funky, long, narrow tables that are something like 6'x1'. The staff can make a lot of custom table sizes with these, as long as one dimension is 6' or 12'. (But don't take off the hotel's white tablecloth – the tables are old and splintering badly. Ouch!) I'm with the hordes of others here in recommending against a table deeper than 6' for all the reasons mentioned. Fit your game into 5' if you can, 6' maximum. - Ix |
TKindred | 16 Apr 2016 1:56 p.m. PST |
I have a gaming table that is esily transportable to cons. It's 4X8 but can break down into two 4X4 boards, which is handy for a specific mirror scenario I run. One side is on 1board, 1 side on the other. Having said that, 6 X 5 works well,as does 12 X 5. Interestingly enough, most Warhammer (fantasy & 40K) as well as Impetus, Dux Bellorum,and many others, suggest a 6X4 table, and that works well too. In fact,with a base 8X4 table, the 6X4 playing area allows you to have a 12" edge on each end for placing troops offboard, holding rule books, etc. |
forwardmarchstudios | 16 Apr 2016 4:02 p.m. PST |
Ok- 6' is the winner. YA- Thanks for the insiders advise on the SF Bay tournament scene. That's some very useful information. I'm really looking forward to getting active in that scene (during whatever free time I can squeak out). I went to the South Bay Game Club website and found out that they're actually doing a game today in Fresno, it seems at someones house. Bolt Action IIRC, but still, that's something. Anyways, I'm heading out to Jo-Ann's here shortly to pick up four more panels of burlap to complete this monster. 20' x 6', should have pics up tomorrow sometime. |
21eRegt | 16 Apr 2016 5:46 p.m. PST |
Just to toss out another arrangement, we play several times a year on a table with 18x12' playing space. Each side has a back table that is in play. So the center arena is 18x6' with each side having a 3' back table for reserves and such. The only kicker is even though we are used to it, every game we have someone taking a surprise volley from someone only 6" away, even though at a glance it looks like 42". Charges from the back table to the main table can also be a bit confusing so be sure you have roads, streams or walls to define where the tables connect. Since we use 28mm figures and really big battalions, it works and fills the needs. |
Bunkermeister | 16 Apr 2016 11:05 p.m. PST |
My table is 16 feet long and 7 feet wide. It's 40 inches high, counter top height. No back problems from leaning over a short table for a couple hours. I use small step stools to allow a longer reach onto the table for the short wargamers. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
uglyfatbloke | 17 Apr 2016 6:54 a.m. PST |
Anybody ever fall off the stool? Not so bad if they fall sideways, but if they fall forward is that an unexpected barrage? |
martin goddard | 17 Apr 2016 7:04 a.m. PST |
You might consider a much less deep table. Do you expect layers only to reach half way across the table? I would recommend a table that players can reach 3/4 of the way across. Thus making the greater area available to them. A less deep table to allow for some off table space to the player's front. If a game goes up to the table edge a player might catch troops and scenery whilst leaning across. How about 3 foot depth?? Just some thoughts Gppd luck marin |
Blutarski | 17 Apr 2016 8:51 a.m. PST |
I have had success using hollow-core doors for table tops. They come in a variety of dimensions; they are individually pretty light; they don't sag; they are relatively inexpensive; they are straight, smooth and consistent on all sides. My typical set-up (mostly naval games) was to use three 36in x 80in door to make a 9ft long x 6ft 8in wide table, with the tabletop surface 32in above the floor. I'm 5ft 11in and access to the mid-table rarely annoyed me. FWIW. B |
christot | 17 Apr 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
Exactly what Bunkermeister said, for a normal 28" high table then 6' is going to be the comfortable max with players sitting on normal chairs. Increase the height to 36" plus and have players stand or use bar stools then increased width is viable, but you do need a box to help reach the centre. Is it worth the trouble? Probably not. Played a million games at the WHC over the years where they have 3 x 6' deep tables, 36" high at which players stand quite happily for an entire weekend. Height is as important as width. |
Old Contemptibles | 18 Apr 2016 3:06 p.m. PST |
I usually do five or six. I have done seven but it wasn't easy, but we managed. This is one of the limitations of miniature gaming. I have never seen or heard of any solutions other than having multiple tables lined up with players in-between them. It works, but it doesn't really do the battle justice and the chances of someone dropping figures are increased. I have seen a hole cut in the middle of a table for someone to stand up in. But then you lose all the middle space and it looks really strange. People are gawking at the guy standing in the hole instead of the game. |
1968billsfan | 22 Apr 2016 4:25 p.m. PST |
A "trick" that has not been mentioned is to use a very wide wargame board, (say 3 tables wide) but arrange them to have the center table with a gap every other table. [1111111][11111111][11111111][11111111][111111111] 2222][22222222]……..[22222222]………..[22222222] [33333333]33333333][33333333][33333333][33333333] fill up the gaps in the "2" row with a light plywood with some inaccessible (painted foam sheets) terrain on it (as well as a handle). The plan is that a small, limber player can crawl under the tables to the gap, the dead-land terrain is lifted up, and he does the moving and measureing and stand removal from his location. You can reach in from the left and right ends of the table 3' so that gives you some more wiggle room. I remember reading that GB Young used this technique and people liked to see his head suddenly appearing in the middle of the table, with a grin, as he sprung something on the opposition. |