""Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem"" Topic

Gentlemen with dice; in case you didn't know – we have a problem. No, seriously. We do.

Do read the linked article. Be warned, you may not like it. I didn't. Hold your breath. Exhale. Repeat until calm. Read it again.

link

Let's face up to something: The gaming culture has always had a problem, and that problem is sexism. Unfortunately, as gaming becomes more 'mainstream' it seems to be getting worse. Or maybe, we're just becoming more aware of it?

Going back about 25 years, I recall a particularly shameful episode at a convention in which a DM was running a campaign. There was a single female player in the group, who was, I recall, 14-15 years old. One of the male players announced that his character was going to rape this female player's character. The DM didn't stop him, didn't penalise him, didn't throw him out of the game. His explanation to the girl – and her parents after? "It's only a game."

Fast forward to the present.

A close female friend of mine is currently playing a Star Wars online game on her tablet. In the general chat, there's a band of juvenile-minded guys who use the chatroom to vilify and throw scorn and hate on women. By the bucketload. It's reached the point where you can't chat, without these idiots inserting their foul trash-talk into your conversation.

And the reaction of the game's publisher and moderator when told of this issue? Nothing. They don't give a damn, as long as the money rolls in.

I'm not out to shame my fellow gamers. No pointing of fingers, from atop my high horse. In fact, I want this whole blame game brought to a halt.

It's the white male gamer base that has the power to stop this. You want to see the 'anti white male' movement stopped? Build a culture that proves that it isn't needed.

Reject games that feature D-Cupped models with swords, comics in which erect nipples strain to escape latex suits, anime that presents women as 'cheesecake' and online communities that vilify and disparage them.

Now, being a guy who's primary gaming interest has more to do with fashioning pikes from steel pins (watch those fingers!), getting the right shade of Blue for the Union Army's jackets, or working out why the heck Sherman 'Jumbos' now get an increase in their top armour, you make be of the opinion that none of that comic book, cartoony, pop culture stuff has anything to do with you. You may well be right, too.

All I'm suggesting is this:

Take a moment to think about the impact that the portrayal of a woman has on women – it's only a moment of your time. Maybe you'll change your mind about a gaming purchase that has bikini-clad battle maidens giggling all over it's cover. If you do, you're sending a message to the guys who make that stuff, that it's time for them to grow up.

Not needed with my group or any of the groups that I see playing in the game store I attend. Have had a woman in our group and she was treated with respect, and I see at least two woman in the gaming groups that frequent the game store with the same respect.

I've never seen behavior like this, either in my gaming groups or at a convention.

I'll contact Wyrd and see if they have a response.

This topic is soooooo going to go nuclear.
I wrote a long piece about it on my FB.

I call "BS" to this article, simply for the following reasons:
1: It's from a tumbler account which seems to promote "self-victimization".
2: This person has been getting groped, assaulted, molested, etc for at least 15 years and not once in her article does she ever write that A: There are witness to support her story, or B: She has evidence, (photos of the bruises). My bet is "She hasn't".
3: She throws out every type of anger label, (White male, Terrorist, Misogynist, Sexual Harassment, Sexual Deviant, etc..)
4 She brings up the SJW "Sad Puppies" which leads me to doubt it's validity right there.
5: When she gives out the "All men are responsible!" cry…Yeah…but no.. That is essentially the same as saying "All Germans are Nazis, All Jews are thieves, All Mexicans are car thieves, and all black males are thugs…." Sorry dear author but that doesn't hold water….

Bill – I have. Way too much sexism at gaming cons, although I do think that wargamers are less guilty than the online crowd. It could be a generational thing – I know teens who say **** about women that would've gotten me belted as a kid.

Access to online porn is now proven as having a big, negative impact on teen males' expectations of women and girls – the same guys who make up a lot of online gaming communities, but by no means all.

If Wyrd are genuinely partly responsible for the harassment outlined in the article, they deserve to be boycotted.

Murphy – Seem to be doing your best to deny and disparage the author without a shred of evidence to back up your counter-claims.

Witnesses? You think it would be ok for me to dismiss you, if you were assaulted, just because you can't produce witnesses? I'm currently battling to help a female friend of mine to be rid of her abusive, violent husband. Know what he does? Waits for her to be alone before he comes crashing in to beat her. No witnesses. That's how these ********** operate.

The author described having witnesses to several of the incidents. Take another look. I'm not saying that proves they occurred. Only that, according to her account, they were there – and did nothing.

All men ARE responsible if we are supporting a culture, however marginal or small, that objectifies or dismisses women. That does NOT mean "All men are rapists." For all I know, you and every other guy here on TMP would sacrifice his life to save a woman from rape.

It's just that the gaming culture (remember, not just wargaming) is not the friendly, inclusive environment we would like it to be – not yet anyway. But that is something we have the power, and the responsibility, to fix.

Murphy, putting the veracity of her statements to one side for the moment, would you consider any of the behaviour she describes as acceptable?

It happens. It is unacceptable. That your first reaction is to say it's BS is reinforcing her point. You didn't believe her and are looking to discredit her.

Why is that, Murphy? What about her claims makes you want to disbelieve her? What do you gain from calling "BS" other than discrediting her and the very valid points she makes? What would be the worst outcome from actually accepting what she says at face value?

G.

MacrossMartin – to your point about porn – there was a study performed recently in the UK where they took comments from rapists about their victims and the text describing women from two UK lad's mags (Loaded and Front) and gave both to a panel. The members of the panel had to try and decide which were the rapists comments and which were from the lads mags. In the majority of cases they were unable to consistently differentiate between the two.

link

Like Terrement I have seen a few incidents like this (noting so extreme as the author records) which, along with the themes of female figure design which give circumstantial corroboration to an attitude or predisposition if not commission.

There was a woman in one AD&D group I was in who I became good friends with and she told me that there is always a constant fear in such groups of the 600 lb gorilla in he room which was the possibility of male violence against women. I was shocked at this. Not because of the possibility in general but that she felt this way in our group where nothing of the kind had ever been the slightest bit in evidence. She, nevertheless said it was operative in all such situations. I have to accept that if she, and the author feels this way then I have to take them at their word and accept that it is real to them.

"Games that feature D-Cupped models with swords, comics in which erect nipples strain to escape latex suits, anime that presents women as cheesecake" Not my taste, but nothing wrong with any of that.

We have had numerous females in our gaming group from 7 years old to mid 30's and everyone was very nice, very supportive. How does miniature gaming compare to any generally all male activity? Football, hunting, race cars, probably not really all that different.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

"White male terrorism is the white underbelly of the gaming community, meant to terrify and disrupt the lives of those who threaten the status quo by race, gender, or sexuality".

"The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious to everyone except straight white men".

"#allmen are complicit in the harassment".

So, I see the anti-white, straight, male-bashing jihad continues. The one group it is still socially acceptable to bash openly, in polite society.

Can you imagine the uproar if you said any of the above about blacks, gays, Muslims, women, Asians, etc., etc. The uproar would be deafening.

Sorry, but I don't buy it, since I've never seen any of the stuff mentioned in the article, at any stores, conventions, club games, or other venues I've been to Not even the libraries or grocery stores, either. Perhaps those with an interest in historical gaming are a little different than those dabbling in other types of games and minis.

Does this mean we've moved beyond bashing the police, and complaining about "white privilege" to this, or are those false narratives still being pushed too, in a multi-pronged assault?

Perhaps she should go to the Middle East, or Germany to see what real "sexism" and harassment are like. I hear in Germany they're considering making, or have already introduced, separate women's train and trolley cars to prevent harassment. In the Middle East, they're just told to shut up, or worse.

It all reads quite tragic until the last paragraph. As a game store owner I have to proceed with caution. Are the miniatures sexy? Sure. Are they pornographic? No. When did sexy become something we should associate with shame? It is a fantasy game. That's it. My wife, co-owner and financial CEO of the store (read that as my boss), loves Malifaux and has persuaded me to start playing. She doesn't feel any more threatened by the sexiness of the miniatures than I feel threatened by the all the shirtless barbarians packing groin bags hanging on the rack. Furthermore, my two teenage daughters who occasionally spend the day with me at the store have never been on the receiving end of anything remotely similar to any of this. There are many battles in the world worth fighting for concerning morality and integrity when it comes to my wife and daughters. I do not feel that boycotting Wyrd miniatures is one of them and have used the provided link to express this sentiment. Dear Wyrd, do not let others dictate what games I can play. Now I'm off to Southern Hobby to restock all of my Malifaux products. Huzzah! (Edit: After exploring this blog further and seeing the references to the shirtless man on page 6 / April 2nd I must call shenanigans. It's not a one way street.)

yep gaming has jerks just like everything else. Maybe just maybe somebody should have taken the offender aside and spoken to him about his treatment of the young lady. Before you all jump on me remember you have all seen an ^%$ hole at a gaming event and if you have never seen one well maybe your friends have.

Sgt Kilrain (from movie Gettysburg):
Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time.

If somebody is doing something wrong, deal with it. But when you judge an entire group by the actions of a few, we call that stereotyping

Well put Martin

The blogger is essentially asking gamers/nerds to:

a) treat people – especially those who are not of the majority gaming demographic – with respect

b) actively discourage hurtful and hateful actions or comments

c) don't sexually harass people, even if you intend it as a joke; don't accept it if your friends do it, and don't accept it from other people you might game with

I would hope that these things would be second nature to everyone here. You may not like her stories and may choose to disbelieve them. That's up to you. But surely any reasonable person can see that some people have been treated badly and that such treatment is not acceptable.

I read it as the blogger attempting to hold Privateer Press " It will be a cold day in hell before Privateer Press gets any of my money" and Wyrd "Call them or fill out a feedback form and let them know that you want a game free from harassment" responsible for a few bad apples. Really bad apples without a doubt. I think she has misdirected her disgust of some crappy fans to the makers of the games assuming that they are responsible for the culture in question. That's equivalent to boycotting Ford because a few punk kids like to drag up and down Main street in their new Mustangs.

I agree with that sentiment, TLA, and will concede that some of those things might have even have occurred and aren't just "her stories" (fiction), but what about her bad treatment of straight, white, males, or all males, and her posting attack claiming "#allmen are complicit in the harassment"?

Seems to me like she's committing a personal and unwarranted attack on a large group of people, which she claims to be against, herself.

Sounds more like an anti-male, Femi-Nazi propagandist to me.

I have actually run into a few of those, in the real world.

I'm going to call BS. Here's why; She supposedly reported several assaults and harassment to various police agencies and EVERY ONE blew her off. Not a chance. I'm a police officer in Virginia and police work isn't like that and hasn't been for 30+ years. Canada, ,which is farther down the PC rabbit hole than we are, would never have officers ignore a complaint without, at the very least, taking a report. She reports several, in the States at least, felonies. Not a chance she was ignored.

It sounds quite implausible to me. I'm sure these kind of incidents do happen , but it seems very unlikely that so many of them would happen to the same person. I was also thinking the same as the poster above about the police reaction, which again seems very unlikely.
The incidents she describes would be sexist and racist bullying, but not terrorism.
And the OP on this thread cites one example from 25 years ago and another example from online computer gaming – hardly evidence that we currently have a problem with this sort of behaviour in the miniature wargaming community.

I find the article very surprising.

In general, we don't have the racial issues in the UK, but certainly the misogyny.

That said the frequency and persistence of the alleged abuse is very surprising. The sort of level you'd expect from real red neck retards and very immature adolescents.

I have a large wargaming event on Saturday and we have a married couple attending, and she has asked NOT to play on the same table as her husband, its her second time attending so she must feel reasonably comfortable in the presence of 15 blokes aged 22-60ish and be comfortable enough to be off gaming with relative strangers.

By co-incidence, one of my mates whilst gaming yesterday supplied a story of how he was reversing the gender roles, by playing an aggressively sexual female half orc who picked on men ! As he comments long and often "perception is my dump stat", so if he is sufficiently aware of these issues then the people this women allegedly plays with have a very low level of self awareness.

Since it's coming from tumblr there's a 99.9% it's completely made up.

Before we start congratulating one another on how miniatures gaming isn't like other forms of gaming, or dismissing the reported events, it might be worth just considering the furore here over changing the Needs More Boobies forum name and some of the language that is used there still. Then think about the female players who no longer post here, in part at least due to some attitudes expressed on the forum.

Ben Avery +1

MacrossMartin: Which current Star Wars Online game is this woman playing; which person, address or game mechanism was used to contact the publisher; and what was the exact response?

thanks!
jeff

You don't have to look very far to see examples of women who have been put in pretty awful situations. Perhaps some of the blogpost was embellished, some incidents were conflated, or she was posting a friend's experiences rather than her own, but that doesn't change the fact that there are girls who have been treated badly and it won't kill us to make sure it doesn't happen when we are around.

As Ben Avery mentions we have a Needs More Boobies board. Sure, it may seem like a joke to some, but it's pretty bloody bad taste if you ask me.

EDIT: apologies, the Needs More Boobies board name has changed since I last knew. Glad to hear it.

Sorry White Knights, I don't believe a word. All these scenarios sound contrived. Some guy dumps knock-out drops in a girl's coke at a con? Really? The racial abuse of a native Canadian at a games store? Seems unlikely. I'm to the right of Neanderthals, but if an Iroquois stepped in my store and asked, "Do you have any figures that look like me?" I would direct her to packs of Woodland Indian figures I might have , or offer to order some just to make a sale.

My verdict: I'm sure some harassment occurs, but her stories or friend's stories are exaggerated.

In any case, what is the solution? Besides the normal person just being respectful, should we have sex and race quotas for games?

Mako, yes, I am not comfortable with that aspect either. Sometimes though I think we have to accept a hit in order to look at the larger picture. The natural reaction is to attack those things we think are unfair but that distracts us from the essential problem and makes it look as if we don't care.

I don't think it will cost us to do all we can to make sure that the environments we *can* control are made welcoming, non-threatening ones.

It is certainly difficult to garner support from people when you lump them in with the ones you are trying to dicredit. I haven't belonged to many gaming groups and don't play the type of games she describes but given the profile of those gamers I don't find it hard to believe these types of incidents occur. It's a small percentage of the people in the hobby but still unacceptable.

My takeaway from this is that this behavior happens and as members of the community we need to put a stop to it by speaking up when we see it happen.

Macross Martin: Since you seem keen on putting the blade to my neck with your questions, allow me to answer them, (and please read them).

Murphy – Seem to be doing your best to deny and disparage the author without a shred of evidence to back up your counter-claims.

Martin, I am not "denying", I am questioning the authenticity and validity of a lot of this that was written. Had you read my full post about this on my FB, which I will only be too happy to send you via PM explaining my POV, then you would see my full POV on this. I question a lot of it simply because of the of the following:

A: We've had quite a few high profile cases in which women screamed "r*pe" or accused people of sexual assault and it became a massive social issue and a rallying cry against whomever…until the truth came out that it was fabricated…Does the UVA/Rolling Stone article ring a bell Martin? The Duke LaCrosse Team?, Tawana Brawley?

B: The part that I found interesting was her blanket shotgun stereotype/generalization that "All men are responsible". In fact, here is what she wrote:

"Men can shout all they like that ‪#‎notallmen‬ harass women, but as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a "sense of humour" (implying that women who don't like being groped are somehow at fault), ‪#‎allmen‬ are complicit in the harassment. – author"

And here was my response:

"So the guy working a shrimp boat six days a week out of Port Arthur Texas that goes home every night to his wife and four kids and goes to church on Sunday (and the closest thing he does to "Gaming" is Dominoes, or perhaps penny poker with his brother on Saturday when the rain keeps the boats in port), is responsible for some buck toothed 20 something gamer creep that copped a feel under your skirt at a gaming convention six states away?
Uh no….
The guy who is sixty something and sitting in a research trailer in Antarctica writing up his latest report on the number of penguin eggs during this years early mating season and how it fits into the cycle of change within the flock of Penguins?
Not at all…"

Also you should realize that when a person is making such claims that they should have some sort of supporting evidence to their claims, (it's part of the supporting argument, which oddly enough in the long run Rolling Stone didn't have, but ran the story anyway and came close to jailing people and ruining lives for a piece of fiction).

As someone who has worked with sexual assault victims in the past, I do not "Deny" her claims. I do say though that I find the entire article and the sheer simply number of occurrences she has to be highly questionable.
TBH: A lot of sounds like it is a collections of actual occurrence but unconnected occurrences borrowed for the sake of narrative.

Witnesses? You think it would be ok for me to dismiss you, if you were assaulted, just because you can't produce witnesses? I'm currently battling to help a female friend of mine to be rid of her abusive, violent husband. Know what he does? Waits for her to be alone before he comes crashing in to beat her. No witnesses. That's how these ********** operate.

And good for you Martin. So the next question being is "has she filed a case of assault or domestic abuse? Have you gone to the legal authorities? Has she had pictures taken of the bruises or wounds she has from him? This is called "Supporting evidence".
What I am saying is that according to her she seems to either have incredibly bad luck, or she is in a community/area filled with incredible douche-baggery, (or perhaps both).

The author described having witnesses to several of the incidents. Take another look. I'm not saying that proves they occurred. Only that, according to her account, they were there – and did nothing.

Once again, all we have is what she claims in this writing. Sorry but I find it hard to believe that at ALL of these cons she goes to, and all of these event and incidents (all the way back to 2001 if her timeline is correct), that there isn't one person that is/was willing to say "Yeah..this guy did this. I will write a statement, or talk to a cop on it."

The thing that made me question a lot of this also was the fact that she tossed just about every major stereotypical aggro-victimization card out there, (White, Male, Terrorist, Sexual Aggressor, Deviant, Molester, etc…She did stop short of Republican or Gun Owner but had she tossed them in there it would not have surprised me).
Her inclusion of the SJW "Sad Puppies" also made me raise an eyebrow as I am familiar with their agenda and their victimization routines and the mess it caused with the Hugo Awards.

All men ARE responsible if we are supporting a culture, however marginal or small, that objectifies or dismisses women. That does NOT mean "All men are rapists." For all I know, you and every other guy here on TMP would sacrifice his life to save a woman from rape.

See my statement about the guy working the shrimp boat in Texas. And to ask that question in a reverse term, "Are ALL women responsible if they support a culture however marginal or small that supports un-validated claims against men?" Think carefully on that one compadre.
I understand that not "All men are rapists" Martin, but when you use the "all men are responsible, well guess what?; you have become part of the problem because you are now generalizing and stereotyping.

Dear Editor. Most of my terrorists are painted various browns and not white, am I doing something wrong? I do have the odd female terrorist miniatures do I need to get more? You help would be most appreciated as I am very paled and male and do not wish to offend anyone with my existence.
WHAT!! Women in the Army… Next they'll want to wargame, Dang we're dooommmed!

Shocking to read.

I personally have never seen or heard of anything like this, and I've been involved in gaming for over 30 years. Are UK men better than Canadian men, seems unlikely.

I'm aware that it's a white, male hobby, and at times amongst ourselves our language is not suitable for mixed company. But in all my years I've never been with a group that didn't have the social grace to be able to moderate their language and behaviour.

But I would echo another poster in this thread. If it makes us take a look at ourselves and work to be more inclusive within our hobby, that's not a bad thing.

From Goober:

Murphy, putting the veracity of her statements to one side for the moment, would you consider any of the behaviour she describes as acceptable?

Of course not. I have seen one case of a guy coming on waaaay too strong against a female at a game and he was pulled and told "unacceptable". He protested and got walked out of the tournament.
I've also been in tournament game where the only female player was dressed in a tinkerbell outfit, (an "R" rated Tinkerbell) and spent most of the game sitting on the floor rubbing the GM's leg. Want to know who won the tournament?
So is that acceptable behavior? Of course not.

When geekery has become the "in thing", like all hobbies, you are going to have your fair share of dirtbags and jack-wipes come into it. Same with NASCAR events, Car Shows, and on The Canes Boards…every hobby, group, etc..has people that are pretty jacked up in the skull with what they think is acceptable. The fact that much of this seems to come from a younger generation of people (who have less social skill and manners due to online gaming I believe), kind of tells a lot.

It happens. It is unacceptable. That your first reaction is to say it's BS is reinforcing her point. You didn't believe her and are looking to discredit her.

As I said to Martin:
We've had quite a few high profile cases in which women screamed "r*pe" or accused people of sexual assault and it became a massive social issue and a rallying cry against whomever…until the truth came out that it was fabricated…Does the UVA/Rolling Stone article ring a bell? The Duke LaCrosse Team?, Tawana Brawley?

Sorry about this Goober, but a while back during my intell training I was taught to "gather supporting evidence to validate claims and reports". With so much of the above going on and people all to easily playing the victimization card nowadays, plus other things she said, it just made me raise my eyebrows at it.

Why is that, Murphy? What about her claims makes you want to disbelieve her? What do you gain from calling "BS" other than discrediting her and the very valid points she makes? What would be the worst outcome from actually accepting what she says at face value?

We've had quite a few high profile cases in which women screamed "r*pe" or accused people of sexual assault and it became a massive social issue and a rallying cry against whomever…until the truth came out that it was fabricated…
Did you take the UVA case, the Duke LaCrosse R*pe Case, or Tawana Brawley at Face value? yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then do you feel like a fool for being lied to again and again and believing false stories.
If the answer is no: Then why did you not believe those but believe this one?

I gain nothing from calling BS on it, other than after 37 years of attending conventions, expos, trade shows, etc, I can say that "the days of the '80's where it was 15-20 guys for every girl at a convention" are far behind us, and that I probably have enough experience under my belt to perhaps have an idea of what I am talking about.
It's this type of "outrage" in which some feels "wronged" or "attacked" that usually ends up with burning torches and pitchforks, or a noose hanging from a tree limb.
TBH I would've given more credit to the author had it not been full of the stereotypical micro-aggressive buzzwords.

But if you are so ready to accept what anyone writes at face value without a shred of proof, or any valid information to back it up, okay, then we can play this game:
Hey everyone guess what? Goober on TMP agreed to pay me a million dollars in cash yesterday and now not only is he welching on the agreement but he has threatened to kill me, burn my house down, eat my lunch, read my mail, and kick my dog, (well I don't have a dog but the neighbors do and you can kick him instead).
Congratulations Goober, I am now a victim and you are now an aggressor.

I am sorry, but terrorism is a very loaded term these days..this does not rise to the level of ISIS killing innocent people. Does that mean this does happen, yes, yes it does. It needs to be stopped when we see it..but terrorism? Somebody needs perspective.

A bit of statistics. These are from Wikepedia, and also in line with those in the 2015 World Almanac and Book of facts.

According to United States Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, there were overall 173,610 victims of rape or sexual assault, or 0.1% of the US population 12 or older in 2013. The DOJ's Bureau of Justice Statistics indicated that among college women (aged 18–24) women who reported any kind of sexual assault, completed rape represented 33% of incidents between 1995 and 2013. Rape is also the most underreported crime, estimates being that only 34.85% of rapes are reported. Therefore if we factor that in the instance of rape is 173.610 / .3385 or 512,880 rapes in a year.

Of these 83% of the victims were female and 17% were male.

Of those perpetrating the rape 5.59% of the rapists were female, and 94% of them were male. Male Victims of rape were overwhelmingly raped by males, 99%.

Based on the available data, 21.8% of American rapes of female victims are gang rapes.

Sounds to me like the problem is the males and my friends assertions of male violence are correct.

Instances of rape and murder are not counted in the above, but under the higher crime of murder.

I do have two female gamer friends that have both reported similar incidents (not quite as bad) as described in the blog post. These are two trustworthy individuals so I have no reason to not accept their statements at face value. One of then no longer games in public venues due to the incident she experienced. I expect this happens a lot more than many of us notice.

Sadly, having watched the GamerGate thing unfold, and all the hooplah around SDCC and cosplaying, I CAN easily see this happening in our community.

I do agree that terrorism is an extremely loaded word to use in this case.

+1 DN Jackson

My gaming group welcomed my daughter and the daughter of another regular several times. All are welcome with us, and there's only one nub in the group that would be less than kind to them or any other woman. Fortunately, he rarely shows up anymore, and even more rarely plays in a game.

Unclassy & irresponsible behavior will manifest itself where ever those type of people are gathered. We live in a society that promotes it.

Nothing new just more and more of them.

Rabbit

Encouraged to see that most of the responses here are measured, or at least, open to the possibility that there is a problem within our gaming culture.

TMP has something of a reputation in the wider gaming population of being something of a hang-out for Grognards and old stick-in-the-muds, but I think many of the replies here prove the membership has a more considered and concerned understanding of the issue than many of the 'cool kids'.

Let me clarify my view – my standpoint is not that our gaming culture is a problem – but that there is a problem within our culture. It is not unique to gaming, but our small corner of the pop culture scene is something we can influence, and alter, to achieve a more positive, inclusive and ultimately enjoyable hobby.

Murphy – wasn't trying to knife you, or anyone else. If you think I was, you have misinterpreted me, but I apologise if I made you feel that was my intent.

I still feel that you are dismissing the author's claims without any evidence to substantiate such dismissal. Highlighting incidents in which rape has been falsely reported does not constitute justification for the rejection or doubting of the claims she presents. The actions of one do not indicate the actions of another.

I willingly accept the possibility that she may be lying. Or, using a multitude of incidents that were suffered by others ,and presenting them as her own life events. I have no evidence to refute that possibility. BUT – I have none to prove her claims false, nor, I suspect, has anyone else here. Therefore, I believe she deserves to be believed, until her claims are proven false.

We have no evidence, pro or anti, of her contacting the police in any but one of the incidents she describes. We are far into the realm of speculation if we assume she did or did not. She may have good reason for not mentioning her further actions in all the incidents. She may not. I'd suggest further speculation about "what happened after" is somewhat pointless, within the context of discussing the article.

But respectfully all – I must stress that my intention in posting the article was NOT to debate the likelihood of its truthfulness. It was to raise an issue which I feel strongly needs to be discussed, debated, argued, and acted upon.

I'm not pushing any particular barrow. Except, perhaps, my own. I know too many women who have endured rape and sexual violence, in 'real life' as we often call our existence outside wargaming.

To come to the realisation that this evil encroaches into my warm, happy world of toy soldiers is the point where I realise that acceptance of this is tantamount to approval of this.

I do not damn well approve.

I am not saying all men are rapists. What the author of the article says is not entirely my point of view. But I DO say that unless a man is actively working to improve the culture of gaming, then he is accepting the current status of that culture, and all the sexism and discrimination that goes with it.

I'm not calling for mass demonstrations. I don't want to see games stores burned to the ground. But just a willingness to consider a choice of gaming material that portrays women in a positive, or at least, non-negative way. A little change, that just might snowball into making this hobby truly universal. I can hope.

jeffreyw3 – I can probably check what the title of my friend's game is, and who makes it, etc. Why do you ask? Have you some insight / advice about how she might be able to deal with them?

I am sorry, but terrorism is a very loaded term these days..this does not rise to the level of ISIS killing innocent people. Does that mean this does not happen, yes, yes it does. It needs to be stopped when we see it..but terrorism? Somebody needs perspective.

But I would echo another poster in this thread. If it makes us take a look at ourselves and work to be more inclusive within our hobby, that's not a bad thing.

Any of the behavior she mentioned is far out of bounds -- having said that, in my decades of gaming I have never seen anything approaching that. The gamer groups I've been in have been very inclusive, geeks of all genders and walks of life bonding around a common interest. I mean, when a girl gamer can play Gonad the Barbarian and a guy gamer can play the exact opposite -- gender attacks and such seem less likely.

So on the one hand, yes, it's good to be aware and take action to immediately self-police our respective gaming groups to make sure they are safe and inclusive.

As someone else mentioned, this seems like a lot of different people's experiences, conflated o not, mixed together to creat a narrative. And some of it is simply outside the realm of my experiences -- like a guy shouting "W'sup N***"" in a store at a black guy and the store owner dismissing it. Doesn't ring true, can't imagine that happening in any store I frequent.

The officer sighs, "We'd have a lot less work if women just stayed away from dangerous, psychopathic losers."

I know cops, I have family members who are cops -- they don't talk like that. So I'd be hesitant to believe that particular story.

If you note a the mention of the SJW Sad Puppies, please see the red flashing light.

* This is how GamerGate started -- attempts by the SJW activists to basically grab control of on-line gaming and dictate the content that game publishers could produce.

* The Sad Puppies issue was push back in the SciFi-Fantasy community against "agenda' fiction and a publishing industry that had started to reward agenda-driven authors with awards and publishing access, while punishing others.

This could easily happen here in the table top gaming community, the next frontier for control by the SJW crowd who want to enforce their standards of content and correctness on us all.

First the came for Malifaux, but I didn't play Malifaux…

Thanks for bringing this up MacrossMartin. Well done and well said.

But respectfully all – I must stress that my intention in posting the article was NOT to debate the likelihood of its truthfulness. It was to raise an issue which I feel strongly needs to be discussed, debated, argued, and acted upon.

I'm not pushing any particular barrow. Except, perhaps, my own. I know too many women who have endured rape and sexual violence, in 'real life' as we often call our existence outside wargaming.

To come to the realisation that this evil encroaches into my warm, happy world of toy soldiers is the point where I realise that acceptance of this is tantamount to approval of this.

I do not damn well approve.

Yes. The point is not how accurate her account is or how loaded the terms are, but that there is at times and in some cases a problem. We need to be vigilant and not turn a blind eye to it or otherwise allow that kind of behaviour to go on.

Perhaps the other article that the blogger links to is also worth mentioning, as it is written by a bloke.

link

Again, well said, and thanks for bringing the issue up. I'm certainly glad to be reminded again of my personal responsibilities to do the best one can about this kind of thing and to make sure that my own behaviour is of a high standard.

Cheers,
Aaron

* This is how GamerGate started -- attempts by the SJW activists to basically grab control of on-line gaming and dictate the content that game publishers could produce.

I'm not going to touch the Sad Puppies thing with a 10-foot pole but this is perhaps the most inaccurate summary of the GamerGate debacle that I've ever seen in print.

-Will

Whilst the linked article does read a little like Doctor Manhatten's origin story in Watchmen with its constant flashbacks, it's hyperbole can be off-putting and its veracity may be questioned, based on people I've actually met, some of the incidents mentioned I'm sure have happened, if not to the writer.

We might not like people telling us we've done or said something inappropriate, *especially* when we think we're doing the right thing, but perhaps the first response shouldn't automatically be 'I'm sorry you're offended, but it's a free country.' I can look back to when I was much younger and cringe at what I thought was appropriate.

Murphy – you didn't address the part where she said 'as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a "sense of humour"' – do you recall the comments about NMB and why it shouldn't be changed? How people should just accept it as a bit of fun?

rvandusen – quotas are a strawman. No one here is suggesting them. In the encouraging women thread (in stark contrast to a couple of recent poll suggestions), someone made the excellent point that simply not making gaming off-putting is enough.

Your own post had the simple solution – 'the normal person just being respectful' or Wheaton's Law. Take your pick.

* This is how GamerGate started -- attempts by the SJW activists to basically grab control of on-line gaming and dictate the content that game publishers could produce

.
I'm not going to touch the Sad Puppies thing with a 10-foot pole but this is perhaps the most inaccurate summary of the GamerGate debacle that I've ever seen in print.

No, but you should since it's very relevant. If you think I'm mistaken about GamerGate then you have a responsibility to explain why.

Murphy – wasn't trying to knife you, or anyone else. If you think I was, you have misinterpreted me, but I apologise if I made you feel that was my intent.

It's okay Martin, no blood, guns, or fire involved. We're cool…

I still feel that you are dismissing the author's claims without any evidence to substantiate such dismissal. Highlighting incidents in which rape has been falsely reported does not constitute justification for the rejection or doubting of the claims she presents. The actions of one do not indicate the actions of another.

And with that last statement I agree. However what I am highlighting is the speed at which people jump to defend a claim before knowing the full story, and trying to find out if it's justifiable or valid. People react emotionally way more quickly than they respond with thought and wisdom.
Here's one for you Martin. Have you ever been or observed a situation in which a female has acted like a total complete ass and idiot, and then when called on it, suddenly turned on the tears and the "I'm a girl." trick, and suddenly everything is okay because "She is a girl and thus "The victim"?…
Working in law enforcement support many years ago, I saw this quite too often.

I willingly accept the possibility that she may be lying. Or, using a multitude of incidents that were suffered by others ,and presenting them as her own life events. I have no evidence to refute that possibility. BUT – I have none to prove her claims false, nor, I suspect, has anyone else here. Therefore, I believe she deserves to be believed, until her claims are proven false.

Yeah…and remember…it wasn't Spain that started the Spanish American was but a newspaper publisher in New York that wanted to sell more papers. But lets not let the truth get in the way or a good crusade and accusation now shall we?
If she uses the collections of others and presenting them as her own life events, then she is out and out lying and misrepresenting herself, and the issue she is writing about.
Bad news used to sell papers.
Nowadays inflammatory posts on social media drive up the clicks.
Rolling Stone learned a valuable, but painful and pricey lesson. Remember when the old adage of journalism was "Always validate your sources"? Whatever happened to that?
Oh wait..yeah..the internet….

Therefore, I believe she deserves to be believed, until her claims are proven false.

And you can believe her…but as Ronald Reagan said "Trust, but verify."

Full disclosure- my daughter has been the victim of sexual assault (she's 21 now, and was 17 when it happened) and I don't say the following lightly. The creep who did it is the one person responsible- and I hole him, and him alone- not society, not his hobbies, and not his social clique responsible- just him.

I categorically reject anyone who attempts to paint all people with the same broad brush. By the logic of the original article, all gamer men are responsible for this behavior. That type of thinking is completely counter productive and is no different than those that condemn all Muslims as terrorists, all blacks as criminals and all Jews as money grubbing. You don't fight prejudice with prejudice.

I also categorically reject that fantasy images of characters creates or excuses the behavior of individuals who act in an unacceptable and illegal manner. While I personally own no scantily clad miniature women, I defend the rights of those who do. I find it moronic in the extreme to blame those images for the type of behavior described.

Please think for a moment. You are saying it's perfectly ok to depict 'heroes' in games where they slaughter and loot other creatures based purely on their race for the express purpose of robbing them, but the line you draw is having a woman depicted with a D cup? (By the way, there are women with D cups- do they not have a right to have a miniature that reflects their own physique? Only small breasted women should be depicted? Should we now shame large breasted women in public because they don't fit your declared physical norm?)

Full disclosure- I don't own any scantily clad miniatures (that I am aware of) and I don't seek them out. It's not my thing. However, I defend the right of those who want to own them or enjoy them. As long as those people understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and treat other REAL men, women or transgendered persons with respect, I don't care what they want to collect or play.

Superheroes, fantasy figures, RPGs et.al are fantasies. Fantasies are generally considered ok. All superheroes- male or female, or transgendered have unrealistic physiques and ridiculous (and sometimes scandalous) costumes. Look around in society. Advertising, tv shows, live stage plays, and music give us unreal depictions of everything. They show the ideal, and most people are smart enough to know that they are not real. People on magazine covers are photoshopped to get rid of blemishes, or pounds to look better. Hell, hamburger ads use all kinds of crazy techniques to show an idealized image of that crappy burger on a crappy bun they actually sell you. Our whole society engages in fantasy on a daily basis.

None of it is real. It's all fantasy. It's the crossing over the line between fantasy and reality that people should be on guard for. We need to teach our kids and those we can the differences between fantasy and reality and that respect for all other people, even when you disagree with them should be the norm.

I am an individual and I can only control my own behavior, and teach my kids to do the same. I can influence my small circle of friends and acquaintances only. There are a LOT of evils in the world, and if I was to be held personally liable and responsible for all of them, I'd never get out of bed in the morning.

What I can do is what I DO do every day. If I see unacceptable behavior, I call it out. If I play an online game and hear or read that kind of crap, I call it out. I make it clear that it's not acceptable to me and that it's bad form.

I've been gaming since I was old enough to read. I am 48 years old and my first gaming convention was at Gen Con in 1984 in Kenosha, Wisconsin. I've been to lots of shows, big and small. I've never been personal witness to the behavior described in the original article. I don't for a minute doubt that this sort of thing goes on- just that I haven't personally seen it.

If I had, or if I have the misfortune to see it in the future, I would stop whatever I was doing and put an end to it. I would assist the victim and confront, and detain if possible the perpetrator until the police can arrive. It's all I can do as an individual.

I used to feel more like MacrossMartin, but then I had the opportunity to work with some very attractive women gamers who loved cosplay and collected scantily clad miniatures and game figures. They explained to me that they did enjoy these images and loved the costuming. They felt empowered when they wore a sexy outfit and enjoyed the attention it brought- while at the same time decrying, and absolutely shutting down any unacceptable behavior that came their way. Knowing and listening to these women made me realize that as strong women, they had the right to dress or enjoy whatever they wanted and that it was unfair for me to impose my own fears on them.

As for myself, I enjoy the female form. I apologize if that offends you. No, I don't own any porn, or collect any depictions of scantily clad women in miniature or other form. I was born a man who is attracted to women and as a human being. Despite my proclivity toward enjoying the female form, I have never, and will never disrespect a woman gamer (or any woman) simply because she is female. (And to some of you that might be a contradiction, since I don't own any porn or objectifying art- but I'm a complex person, don't judge me).

I make this pledge for myself-

I respect a woman whether she wears a burkha or a g-string. They get to decide how they want to appear in this world- not me. And I call out those who belittle either outfit.

I treat all persons with respect, no matter who they are until they give me a reason not to respect them. I welcome women to my gaming table, my workplace and wherever else they want to go. I judge all people based on them and them alone. In all these places, I call out unacceptable behavior.

I am in a regular RPG group which women. I regularly play many board games with women. We don't tolerate any behavior such as described in the original post. I have been married to the same woman for 27 years and do my utmost to respect her in all ways.

I continue to teach my children to do the same.

Alas, I see so many young men being taught differently, or more to the point, taught nothing at all and left to draw their own conclusions, and I try to educate those I come into contact with to respect ALL people and to have a healthy respect for where fantasy ends and reality begins.

That is all I can do.

I won't for a minute, however, call on others to enjoy their fantasy differently to make me feel better about myself as long as they keep their fantasies as fantasy. If their fantasies cross over into reality, however, I will call it out.

I won't for a minute fight prejudice with other prejudice.

I hold individuals, and those individuals alone responsible for their behavior. If you want to make the world a better place, stop looking for categories to blame for individual behavior.

Murphy – you didn't address the part where she said 'as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a "sense of humour"' – do you recall the comments about NMB and why it shouldn't be changed? How people should just accept it as a bit of fun?

Ben, as I am unfamiliar with what you are talking about "NMB?" perhaps you can refresh my memory?

NMB: National Medical Bureau?
NMB: NMB technologies (motors and bearings)
NMB: (Gene) in genetics?

Sorry but I am not understanding…

@TGerritsen -- well said!

Oh, and categorically, if it wasn't clear in my post above- I do not for a second mean to imply that you should defend gamers doing what the original author states happened to her.

If you see that kind of behavior- there is no defense for it. It's not joking, it's not funny and there is no humor there to imply. It's wrong. Period.

My point is that blaming it on sexy miniatures is stupid and puts the blame in entirely the wrong place.

I don't believe that objectifying fantasy is to blame. If you don't want to go kill your neighbors and take their stuff after playing Dungeons and Dragons, then why do we accept for a second the premise that someone who sees a sexy woman in a fantasy game immediately goes out and wants to grope women in public?