"HMGS Conventions" Topic

Open letter to HMGS

Good morning. As most of you are aware, Adepticon has come and gone. It appears that it was another successful convention. It continues to grow and people are excited to be there.

Adepticon had games like Saga and Bolt Action that were very successful. Games that are Historical in nature thriving at Adepticon – a convention that has it's roots in 40K and Warhammer Fantasy.

So I have to ask.. why aren't the HMGS conventions experiencing the same success?

When I look at the vendor list and events for Adepticon, I want to be there! They have world famous painters, such as Angel Jimenez giving classes. Who do we offer? Hobby University is nice but isn't drawing people in.

Lets look at the Vendors. Adepticon offers exciting vendors with new product to offer people. What new product are we offering people? We have Brigade Games, Battlefront, Footsore, Eureka and Old Glory. I've yet to see HMGS really pump these vendors up to the people.

So how do we fix this?

Get companies that people WANT to see at our conventions.

Let's get a well known name to offer painting classes. Badger offers world class air brushes, compressors, accessories and top quality air brush paints. What would it cost to get Badger airbrushes to come in, offer their product and give classes? We could also look at getting MIG in to demo their weathering products.

What would it cost to have Mike Owens (Artisan Miniatures), Mark Sims (Crusader Miniatures), Bill Thornhill (Footsore Miniatures) or Russ Dunway (Old Glory) to give sculpting classes? Bill and Russ are at our conventions, make beautiful miniatures and they're easy to speak with. We had the Perry brothers come once and show their work. Can we do that again?

How about getting Gripping Beast to come over and help run a Saga or Muskets and Tomahawks tournament?

Or – if we really feel adventurous – how about trying to get Fantasy Flight Games in to do a Star Wars X-Wing tournament? Who doesn't like Star Wars???

Now what are we doing about promoting ourselves? Does HMGS use Twitter to communicate with people? How about Facebook? Are we doing anything with You Tube?? Can we get Beasts of War in to help cover our conventions – like they did for Adepticon? Let's create traffic MONTHS before the conventions using social media. Promoting our conventions on TMP is good but kinda like preaching to the choir.

In short, I don't think the "greying of the hobby" or the economy are hurting our conventions. I believe the model we use to promote ourselves is outdated and we're refusing to update. Let's update and become exciting again!!

" I don't think the "greying of the hobby" or the economy are hurting our conventions."

I am amused by the "blame the economy" argument for the past several years. One of the HMGS Cons (I forget which) experienced its all-time high attendance figures in 2009, during the worst of the recession. Since then the economy has been steadily picking up, but attendance has been steadily falling.

But the greying of the hobby – at least for historical gamers in North America – is very real. It's the difference between this (1996):

And this (same club, 20 years later):

"I believe the model we use to promote ourselves is outdated and we're refusing to update. Let's update and become exciting again!!"

The model, and the venue.

But you're forgetting that there's another possibility: perhaps the guys in "the hobby" like it just fine the way it is. Perhaps they have no desire to update or become exciting or attract new and younger people. Perhaps it's like those guys who are proud that they haven't listened to any new music in 35 years, and although they haven't listened, they're sure that none of the new stuff is worth listening to.

I do have some sympathy for this position. After all, there is something to be said for having a long-term, tight-knit group that belongs to one generation and they all age together. And who cares, really, whether anybody plays this hobby after you die?

But getting old does have its downsides. These days the only passion I see in the American historical gaming community, is the passion to resist change.

We fix it by going to Adepicon.

I considered going to Adepticon this year. It would be very easy as I still have relatives in Schaumburg with whom I could stay. I didn't because I didn't see any games I wanted to play in. Adepticon is a great convention for people who like competition and tournaments. I'm interested in neither. I will be attending Little Wars and running a couple of games there. Horses for courses.

But you're forgetting that there's another possibility: perhaps the guys in "the hobby" like it just fine the way it is. Perhaps they have no desire to update or become exciting or attract new and younger people. Perhaps it's like those guys who are proud that they haven't listened to any new music in 35 years, and although they haven't listened, they're sure that none of the new stuff is worth listening to

Exactly my point. To stay stagnant is a sure death. The dealers aren't happy about the current conditions. We owe it to them to introduce their produce to a new generation of gamers.

The difference between the successful conventions and HMGS – the ability to attract new people.

Adepticon is a great convention for people who like competition and tournaments.

Next year, for the first time, I'm planning to attend Adepticon and cut out Cold Wars. Why? It's not the tournaments. It's to see the vendors. Look at the new products. Check out new games.

I really think HMGS can become exciting again. We need to step out of our comfort zone and change the way we do things.

I strongly believe that those of us in the historical wing of the miniatures hobby who want to reach out to the fantasy/sci-fi wings of the hobby are just going to have to go out and do it ourselves, without the support of any HMGS or related historical gaming organization.

Right or wrong, these organizations are dominated by people who believe they are supposed to be historically-focused, which means putting on historical-only conventions for the benefit of existing membership. Reaching out to new gamers or to "grow/promote" the hobby is a clearly secondary (or less) purpose. I must admit that this is not an unreasonable position, although I disagree with it. If you only get to go to one convention a year, it is a reasonable argument to say that you want that convention to feature the games you and your friends play, and not a bunch of games that none of you have interest in just so you can "recruit" new players for the future.

Those of us who want to poach Warhammer, Warmachine, X-Wing, etc., gamers to become the next generation of ACW, Napoleonic, or WW2 gamers are going to have to put on games ourselves at Adepticon, at Origins, at GenCon, and hope for the best. That is likely what I will start doing next year, though I know that members of my own inner-circle of local gamers will not agree or participate, and will criticize me for choosing Origins over Cold Wars. It is easy for me to say all this--I started as a roleplayer in my teens, moved to wargames, and only as an adult did I start historical miniatures gaming (I do not count the 10,000 airfix figures I had as a kid, because I only played by myself with them). I can enjoy my SYW collection one day, a Warhammer scenario the next, and a rpg game the day after that. Not everyone is that omnivorous in their tastes.

None of the UK shows (that I can think of at any rate) are exclusively historical. All feature fantasy and/or Sci-fi to a lesser or greater extent.

I can only speak for Little Wars, but I have seen both fantasy and Sci-fi games being put on there. Nor have I heard anyone complain.

But the flea market is the premier selling venue at the HMGS East cons, not the Vendor Hall. You can tell by what they advertise in the literature.

Now that businesses are allowed to sell in the flea market it is possible that we will see a shift out of the vendor hall and to the flea market for some of the smaller vendors.

How many vendors attended Adepticon? I am asking the number and not which vendors.

I counted 55 vendors

link

Which of those vendors carries historical figures?

As far as SF/ Fantasy vs Historical goes, I don't think that's the issue. As pointed out Little Wars has Fantasy and SF games regularly. I ran a Hard SF game last year and am running a VSF game this year. The difference is that my games are "come and play with my stuff" whereas the vast majority of games at Adepticon are "bring your army and fight" tournaments. Very different market.

I did not realize that they were making that shift Pictor. It seems a bad idea it means it will diminish the ability of the mid to large vendors to make cons like Historicon, Cold Wars, and Fall In worth while for them to attend.

Adepticon while seeming to be a nice convention is not going to be my cup of beverage.It is also even farther away than the current crop of HMGS conventions I do like to attend. While I agree that HMGS East needs to try new things I think you are looking at a trying to go upstream without a paddle. Some of the older guard like things just the way they are and will complain loudly to any kind of shift.

I also do not think that things are as dire as some would profess. The graying of the hobby argument is a long running myth. There are enough of us older gamers who came to historical via fantasy, rpgs and things like 40k. We are equally able to swim in both waters and by example pull the some of the younger ones along who suddenly dig history. This is something that has to happen organically. You cannot force it.

Thank you for posting the list of vendors. Of the 55 listed I have only heard of a few of them. The rest I never heard of before. Can I take it that most of them are fantasy/sci fi dealers then?

I just got home from my first time at Adepticon. I can't say enough good things about this con.

Nice location with easy access to a major airport , So no Car rental (more to spend on stuff). Cheap Hotels in the area and free shuttles to several.

Easy registration, Walked in wait in line for a couple of minutes and off I went. lots to do and not enough time. Easy Guide app to find your game's locations & time. The convention center was Well light and clean.

I play test several new games both Historical & None Historical. The Dealer area had things I was looking to buy and the bit sale (aka Flea Market ) was filled with bargains.

I played in 2 Tournaments and 2 games and all were well run and fun to participate in. I saw many Younger players try out Historical games and enjoying themselves.

The Terrain was in general far above what you will find at most HMGS conventions.

The local HMGS chapter had part of a room upstairs and run lots of excellent games/Tournments.

I would say that there is much to Learn from Adepticon's model on how to run a great gaming convention.

"But the flea market is the premier selling venue at the HMGS East cons, not the Vendor Hall. You can tell by what they advertise in the literature.

Now that businesses are allowed to sell in the flea market it is possible that we will see a shift out of the vendor hall and to the flea market for some of the smaller vendors."

News to me – could you quote your source ?

Kevin Kelley

Many years ago both Jervis Johnson and Gripping Beast (separately) contacted me to attend Historicon since I ran the WAB tournaments. I connected them to a Board member. The Board didn't see fit to contact them back. I guess they never heard of either or didn't care. Jervis was particularly annoyed since he was thinking (or hoping) of presenting a discussion seminar on game development and/or any other topic that might be wanted. He was willing to come over and do it on his own dime as well. GB wanted to show off their own stuff at a table in the Dealer Hall. Nope… didn't happen, neither came and it was our loss.

Don

"News to me – could you quote your source ?"

Dragonbait Miniatures had a booth in the flea market in, I believe, the Saturday afternoon session. A couple of people told me that there was at least one other terrain company there selling things. And at least one painter stopped by to tell me how much they had sold in the flea market.

dragon-bait-minis.com

The source for the shift in the focus is that in the historicon post cards for this year there are three photos, one on the front with some painted figs and two on the back. One is a picture from a game, the other is the flea market.

The vendor hall is mentioned but certainly not featured. There is no picture of it.

The only conclusion is that HMGS East is more focused on the flea market, that must be the premier vending area now.

I have spoken to a number of vendors who expressed some interest in making the switch to the smaller time commitment and lower cost tables for the show as well as the better advertising.

Don that is sad to hear and makes me shake my head at the stupidity of inaction. Personally I would have loved to have talked to Jervis and gotten his insights on game design. It would have been great to see Gripping Beast there as well. I know that Warlord did attend one year at Historicon and their booth was extremely popular.

Apples and oranges. Adepticon is not going to offer hundreds of unique scenario driven games, offer me the chance to see lots of different rules in action, or to see minis from lots Artizan, Footsore, Pulp Figures, or any of the dozens of oyher smaller vendors doing really interesting historical stuff. The OP mentions Saga and Bolt Action specifically as examples of historical gaming at Adepticon, but how many of those games are a unique scenario or feature really interesting terrain or some other feature that I cannot readily get from my local gaming group? Those are the sorts of things that draw me back to Historicon every year and conversely leave me with essentially zero desire to try and make it to Adepticon. Really I guess it can be summed up that Adepticon seems to offer simply a bigger and louder version of the same things I can already get in my basement or at the FLGS.

Apples and oranges. Adepticon is not going to offer hundreds of unique scenario driven games, offer me the chance to see lots of different rules in action, or to see minis from lots Artizan, Footsore, Pulp Figures, or any of the dozens of oyher smaller vendors doing really interesting historical stuff.

Your point is well taken. I'm not suggesting that we become another Adepticon. My point is that Adepticon is growing. There are allot of people that want to attend. I'd like to see us take the high points that Adepticon offers, take everything they do right and incorporate it into the HMGS conventions.

I'm not trying to turn this into a conversation that says HMGS stinks. I'm trying to take something and make it a better product that will be more attractive to gamers in general.

"Right or wrong, these organizations are dominated by people who believe they are supposed to be historically-focused, which means putting on historical-only conventions for the benefit of existing membership."

I disagree with the premise, I have never seen a "Historical only" convention and I've been going to HMGS-E cons for over 3 decades. I think that if you throw "Pulp" into the mix, the last con, Cold Wars was almost half "non-Historical".
I'm fine with that, we are all gamers, and while it is true that the Fantasy/Sci-Fi side of the market has the shinny, new, high mark-up stuff, the continued success of our cons will depend on keeping it affordable to the dealers who have made the cons possible to run.

P.J. ONeil is quite correct. There has never been a "historical only" convention and I too have gone to almost every one. P.J. is also a good friend of mine. One I look forward to seeing at each con. I can also say that in the past 30 years of conventions I don't think I've put on more than two historical games. Depends on what you mean by "historical." If you mean historical as actual battles from history using correct uniforms and troop organizations then I haven't put on a historical game ever. Actually no one I know has or have seen has either. My games are largely what-If scenarios with imaginary nations (no magic) which are indistinguishable from the physics of the real world. I really don't care what they guy on the next table does, and I don't care if he loves to use the misshapen-hulking enormous figures of star-troopers all hunched over like they are heavily constipated and settling in for a prolonged squat. (I imagine their body armor has a little door in the seat of their iron jammies.)

The HMGS has a few people who will scream and shout and carry on about such things being around. We argue with them, but largely ignore them. Anyone can put on anything at an HMGS convention (well almost anything, I wouldn't try something about Auschwitz or Urban gangs going on a rape rampage, but generally anything goes.

HMGS has a lot of faults. Exclusion of non-historical gamers is not one of them.

I disagree about the flea market out of 40 or more tables maybe one guy sneaks in to sell his wares doesn't mean the staff are opening doors for them. The flea market has always been a complaint of the vendors, I sell from time to time at the market you know we're all that money goes plus to the vendor hall. Both vendor and market are draws no question we need to incorporate both in harmony and stop tearing our organization apart. There should be no morning flea market it should start after lunch stop at 5 and second session opens at 7 this way it's after the dealer hall is closed. The BOD better start listening to the population of HMGS or it will keep its decline.

One other point.

I do not eschew sci-fi or futuristic games because I don't like the period. It's that the minis made for them at present are just extravagantly and outrageously UGLY. The second factor is control. I won't knuckle under to ANY companies attempt to "sanction," "control," or "ban" any but their own figures, rules, terrain, and ideas. Do that in the slightest way and I will quite simply not touch your products.

Ottoathome says

"One other point.

I do not eschew sci-fi or futuristic games because I don't like the period. It's that the minis made for them at present are just extravagantly and outrageously UGLY. The second factor is control. I won't knuckle under to ANY companies attempt to "sanction," "control," or "ban" any but their own figures, rules, terrain, and ideas. Do that in the slightest way and I will quite simply not touch your products."

There are a lot of really lovely minis in both 25mm and 15mm scales that don'e have any requirements from the companies that put them out.

denizenminiatures.co.uk

shop.groundzerogames.co.uk

stanjohansenminiatures.com

splinteredlightminis.com

link

rebelminis.com

khurasanminiatures.tripod.com

clearhorizonminiatures.com/shop

And there are many more!

Where and when is Adepticon held?

Last Weekend of March/1st of April in Chicago ,IL

What was the attendance at Adepticon for each of the last three years. Saying "it's growing" tells me nothing.

I would say it attracts about 4,000 – 5,000 gamers. But that's just by eye-ball.

Is there any way to get exact figures? I prefer that as opposed to someone eye-balling it.

I heard about the gr eying of the hobby back when I opened my first store in 1983. Last year was the first time in all of these decades that I saw its affect. Every convention that I attended in 2015 and one in 2016 has had a memorial to one or more local club members who died.

Back in the 1980s there were a strong group that thought all gaming would be done on computers. While the fast reaction games are on computer, many strategy board games are still being published.

Next year, for the first time, I'm planning to attend Adepticon and cut out Cold Wars. Why? It's not the tournaments. It's to see the vendors. Look at the new products. Check out new games.

As long as the new games, new products and vendors are fantasy/sci-fi, you won't be disappointed. If you mean historicals, then you will be. For historical gamers, the vendors at the HMGS cons are way better.

I agree with the rest of your points.

There are a few vendors that have products that I use. Secret Weapon, Badger Airbrushes and Battlefoam are just a couple. Since I also play Infinity seeing Corvus Belli is a big plus for me.

Is there any way to get exact figures? I prefer that as opposed to someone eye-balling it.

Well, the Con just ended today. Last year's registered attendees totalled 2,400. They believe this year was bigger. I do know that they had 1350 people register in the first 24 hours that registration opened (Nov. '15).

Tournaments hold no interest for me. NONE. The vendor hall has the vendors who do historical, fantasy and sci fi, don't miss out much on figures. I enjoy both historical and non-historical games, and HMGS never disappoints. More people is always great, but we are in a niche hobby and it is what it is. The members here are responsible for bringing in new gamers, not HMGS. So go to your local store and start playing with people and bring them into the fold.

No one was selling Pulp figures or Artizan at Adepticon but Footsore was there (I picked up his new monks). I spent enough at Badger, Mantic and knuckleduster as it was.
I don't think they care whose figures you use. In the historical games I was in (and mine) there were figures from Foundry, Footsore, Aventine, and Gripping Beast as well as Warlord. I know my friend's Bolt action forces are not Warlord figures. Not sure how the 40K games are run with regard to proxies as I didn't wander by those.

The scenario games are definitely out numbered by the army tournaments. I think more would be a well supported and welcome addition at Adepticon. The HMGS games I saw looked well attended.

@ Pictor

Dragonbait Miniatures had a booth in the flea market in, I believe, the Saturday afternoon session.

He (Dragonbait) has been a member of HMGS, Inc. since at least 2010. He has been buying Flea Market tables since Cold Wars 2011].
According to the Dragon Bait Facebook page, it looks like he started his company in late 2014 with the first minis going up for sale around Feb 2015.
After he started his business, he attended CW'15 [got Fri PM table], FI'15 [got Fri PM & Sat PM tables] and CW'16 [got Fri & Sat AM tables]. Basically, we have a member of at least six years, getting flea market tables for at least five years and starting a business about one year ago.

The source for the shift in the focus is that in the Historicon post cards for this year there are three photos, one on the front with some painted figs and two on the back. One is a picture from a game, the other is the flea market.

From the person who did the postcard layout:
They do have a very small image on the back which I thought was a dealer hall at cold wars or fall in. The image is about the size of a postage stamp.

The only conclusion is that HMGS East is more focused on the flea market that must be the premier vending area now.

Your conclusion is based on a postage stamp picture and that one ‘vendor' managed to slip in. Let's to some simple arithmetic – He had two sessions, he paid $25 USD membership, $20 USD to get in, and $40 USD (soon to be $50 USD) for one table for 4 hours. That's $95. USD He gets to pick up his stuff rather than leave it out. A vendor gets a table for $105 USD for the weekend – roughly 18 hours and HMGS covers the WiFi cost, electricity for your lighting and any state/city tax or fees. The Wally's basement agreement does not prohibit vendors, it prohibits shelves, business cards, non cash transactions, and a host of other stuff.

Has anyone thought of putting everyone together in one room same price. My folks sold at toy soldier shows for years and they had everyone together. This would create more traffic for the vendors and no one could complain. Jusy my two cents.

Good idea. The entire balcony is now empty since the painting competition largely went away. There was plenty of room in the back of the tennis barn. Access would be the main problem though for flea marketeers.

I'd support a merger. I'll also run games at Adepticon if possible. I just need to get some notice of the application deadline.

The Adepticon Event cart from 2016 is still up. Filtered by 'Event Game' aka not Tournament, I count 128 events from all game systems.
link

Warlord with FootSore and BattleFront Miniatures were in the Vendor Hall. Many of the other vendors were smaller companies who are growing their market – the Kickstarter generation if you will.

The games of Hail Caesar which I ran this year were well attended and I plan to expand number of games I host next year.

Rich – event submission generally starts in August. There will be a post here on TMP when Adepticon begins accepting game submissions. Email me at Richard1Nelson @Hotmail.com if you have questions.

I have to agree about the utter stupidity of blaming the economy all the time. The high point in attendance was right in the heart of a recession, and it has declined all through the supposed recovery.

I'd also note that in my 27 years in the hobby, I have heard laments about the "graying of the hobby" since day one. While I do not doubt there is some truth to it, it is hardly the issue it is made out to be. The hobby would be gone by now if that was the case.

Combining the dealer area and the flea market makes sense, as it would drive the flea market traffic spikes past the other dealers.

Just about every boardgaming convention is growing every year – WBC grew almost every single year it was the Host including last year. BGG.Con sold over 2000 tickets in a matter of hours. GenCon grows double digits every year. On the one hand, different hobby to a certain degree, although there is some participant overlap. But if they can weather the "bad" economy, why can't HMGS ?

Origins attehdance is growing too:

2007 July 5–8 11,104
2008 June 26–29 10,110
2009 June 25–28 10,030
2010 June 24–27 10,669
2011 June 22–26 11,502
2012 May 30 – June 3 11,332
2013 June 12 – June 16 11,573
2014 June 11 – June 15 12,902
2015 June 3 – June 7 15,938

link

I think there are many factors contributing to HMGS's situation, but I don't think being exclusively historical (it isn't, has never been, though it has grown non-core games apparently to no avail) is one of them.

There were four DBA 3 events at adepticon. Two tournaments, one demo, and one scenario game, King Arthur. I saw lots of historical events going on. It was a very well-run convention. The bathroom floors were clean and dry and there was Kleenex on the counters there. The rooms had great acoustics I could hear the people across the table talking to me, unlike historicon which is a huge room of din. There were of course not as many historical miniatures gaming vendors as at historicon. There were a few that had materials I was interested in. What was interesting is that the fantasy sci-fi vendors have lots of crossover material for terrain and buildings and conversion. I will be back. It's only five hours from where I live as opposed to 12 to Virginia. I only wish that little wars and adapt to come were at different times of the year they should replace called wars and fall in respectively, as the big Midwest conventions.

I notice that, like Gen-con, Adepticon has a large number of manufacturer sponsors who put on 'official' tournaments and demonstrations. I can't think of many historical publishers or figure producers that have the resource to do similar. That might have something to do with the growth of the specific conventions mentioned.

RB wrote – "I notice that, like Gen-con, Adepticon has a large number of manufacturer sponsors who put on 'official' tournaments and demonstrations. I can't think of many historical publishers or figure producers that have the resource to do similar."

Let me amend the second sentence a tiny bit -
"I can't think of many historical publishers or figure producers that ARE WILLING to do similar."

I might be wrong here, but I sense an assumption on the part of vendors that the wargaming world will beat a path to their booths and open their wallets just because they have shown up at the convention. I don't think it is a coincidence that the vendors who appear to be the most successful (GW, FoW, Osprey for example) are the ones who have a strong sponsor presence in the gaming halls.

Strictly my opinion, of course.

B