"Help identify these combatants" Topic

Can anyone have ideas as to which ships or even what nationalities they may be: flic.kr/p/FLRYoQ

I found this oil painting at a junk shop for $10 USD and bought it for my office/wargame room.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Well, from what I can see, the ship on the left looks to be flying Spanish colors, if that helps.

Probably British vs. Spanish…it could be an single ship duel drawn in isolation during Captain Graham Moore's famous "Plata Fleet" squadronal action off Capa Santa Maria in 1804; but that is purely conjectural on my part.

My goodness, you're right. I focused so hard on the rear of the ships I failed to look between the sails. The other ship is a British ship flying a red ensign. I did didn't even see at first and I'm looking at the full size painting. Thanks.

Now if I can figure out ships. Probably non-existent but still will try.

It's a GORGEOUS painting though, you really lucked out!

I'll pay you 50 Quatloo's for it! (Not kidding either)!

Antiques Roadshow time!

My youngest son has already claimed right of first refusal on the painting. When Antiques Roadshow comes to town I may pay them a visit.

I wonder if it was done as an illustration or even a cover for a Hornblower novel? Didn't he have a scrape with Spanish ships?

Doesn't look like a Hornblower cover, nor Kent or any of the others I would immediately recognize.

Well, assuming the left ship is Spanish and the right one British and both are frigates, and the action being a daylight, open ocean action, and that its based on an historical action, that narrows it down to the following Spanish ships:

Medea- Captured as part of the plata fleet in the Action of 5 October 1804.
Santa Clara- Also captured as part of the plata fleet in the Action of 5 October 1804.
Fama- Also captured as part of the plata fleet in the Action of 5 October 1804. Taken by HMS Lively while trying to escape.
Mahonesa- Taken by HMS Terpsichore in the Action of 13 October 1796. (The one painting of this action has Terpsichore flying the white ensign, so this one may be ruled out).

There were 8 other Spanish frigates taken during the 1794-1808 period, but their actions don't match the conditions in the painting.

If I had to guess, I'd say its Fama vs Lively. But that's based on a whole lot of assumptions (which could be wildly wrong! And if its a fictional action, then all bets are off!).

In any case, it is a FANTASTIC find! Get that puppy framed and on the wall!

Very nice painting.

Interesting puzzle!

I can't identify the combatants either, but what a great find!

A couple of comments on Charlie 12's suggestions: That's definitely NOT Fama vs. Lively. HMS Lively was a large heavy frigate, while the ship depicted in the painting has no forecastle and is clearly much smaller. In fact, it may only be a sloop, rather than a frigate, judging by gunport spacing and how high the ports are on the hull.

The Spanish vessel appears to be a brig, rather than a ship, although the perspective makes it hard to tell.

If it is a historical action, likely it was a single-ship action only; it was conventional in naval-action paintings to show related fighting in the background, if the central action was part of some larger encounter.

Is it an actual oil painting, or a reproduction? (A real oil painting will have more texture, a reproduction will be smooth). I seem to think I've seen this before -mass produced for sale in retail stores. The cheap-looking frame is a giveaway.

… I also meant to say: if it is mass-produced, it might well represent an imaginary action.

Billyfish: This is an oil painting on canvas stretched over a wood frame which is why I'm so thrilled with my find.

It is framed in a decent custom frame but nothing too extravagant. It doesn't have any protective glass over it which is something I've had done with other oil paintings I have.

I have a feeling it's an imaginary action but typically one would think of French vs British as a subject or more typically here in the USA American vs British. Spanish vs British is surely an unusual subject.

The action wouldn't be unusual for a Spanish painter. Avoid glass: you end up seeing more of yourself than the painting. Is there a signature?

No signature and I use the term glass when actually i' have used in the past a special non-glare, UV protective material that does not reflect (even a camera flash). It's not cheap but it works well while protecting the painting.

Not sure about the Spanish vessel but I think the British ship is a sixth rate Banterer-class post ship (22 guns). Shame we can't see more gun ports or else this would be much easier

Yeah, the more I look, they seem to be smaller, ship rigged sloops of war (miniature frigates) and the Spaniard may even be a brig.

Still though, an awesome picture.

Hey G., maybe you can take it somewhere where it can be professionally photographed and you/they can make prints out of this picture. I would certainly buy one and I'm sure others here would be interested too!

Just my two King's shillings worth!

Well if you really got this for ten bucks……..an original oil painting……you are one lucky guy.

This is a print…you may have some paint added to it..to enhance it….but in UK even that would add far more than 10 bucks to value.

I have a Jerry Garcia image…with some white paint added to a print……..adds about 30 $US to price……….hell, who cares?

There is a set up that can tell you where any image is sourced from…my three sons would do it stat……..

The original of this is worth hundreds of thousands……..not millions………not yet

Are those 6 aft gun ports on the ship in the foreground?

….my use of the word 'ship' is being employed casually :-)

is that a 'splash' in the mid foreground?
The more I look at this picture, the more I absolutely love it

Great painting…I would agree with everyone..Spanish and British.!

Okay for the doubters out there; this is an oil painting and not a print. It is stretched canvas on a wood frame. It is fully textured and you can see the texture of the paint where the canvas wraps around the frame. I had a professional framer look at it today and they showed me where the painting had been re-stretched over a new frame. They think this may have been done because it was damaged or the owner wanted it smaller. The original painting, before re-stretching appears to have had more painting to the left side. Either way, this is an oil painting. The framer also mentioned that the yellowing of the canvas on the back side shows more to lack of care than age. They used fairly modern brads or nails for the frame so it's not that old. He thinks that some art student or the like copied an original as a form of practice. He did advice me to take it to an appraiser so I will. I doubt it is some long lost master piece but to me it's a gem.

To get it framed the way I want is going cost me around $450 USD but I'm happy to pay the price because I love this piece of art. Thanks for all the comments and thoughts as to who the combatants my be.

(Oh and did I mention my wife hates it? So its only place will be in my office.)

Still, an original oil painting without a signature seems strange. And the style is 20th Century, or late 19th at the most. I doubt very much this painting (or the original from which it was copied, if that's the case) was painted at the time of the Napoleonic Wars.

Either way, it's a great subject, and I'm sure it will give you lots of pleasure.

I have the same "painting" at home. As someone said , it's not an actual painting, hence the price,

It's a reproduction put on a rather simple canvas .

The reproduction imitates the strokes of a brush with a kind of plastic.

The signature is on the bottom left of the "painting".

It does look very familiar. At first I thought a jigsaw puzzle from late 60s early 70s, but I do seem to recall it as selling in stores, even in UK, from that period….just as BillyFish suggested.

Nothing wrong with that. It is extremely well done. Textured print onto canvas……the original would sell well!

JML writes:

I have the same "painting" at home. As someone said , it's not an actual painting, hence the price,
It's a reproduction put on a rather simple canvas.
The reproduction imitates the strokes of a brush with a kind of plastic.
The signature is on the bottom left of the "painting".

That is not to say it is not really good value at ten dollars US….what I mean is that it is……too many negatives there!

It is a textured print. Next up in value is a print with some real paint layered over it to create a "relief"…that is my Jerry Garcia office picture. Finally comes the real thing. I keep trying to find the original of this………but no luck so far. It is so familiar. Book cover? I just know this.

If there are now two copies found, someone must be able to read the signature

Signature is in bottom left. I think the painting is excellent. I would not invest a huge amount in framing, but that is just me.

Yes, but what does it say? The signature…can it be deciphered?

auction

Montague Dawson is the artist. Link is to an ebay post.

…Still, $10 USD is cheaper than $53. USD And the signature seems to be on the surrounding border, not on the 'painting' itself.

Montague Dawson, 1890-1973. He was British.

I think this shows what a bargain this purchase represents…also how well it would look framed.

link

From a quick search the print is called "The Days of Adventure" – can't find if it was intended to represent a particular action.

Very good find for $10 USD, you can still buy new copies of the print (and many of his other painting) from various art dealers and on basic paper it is $50 USD, $200 USD for the 'canvas' effect.

I'm sure I've seen it as a puzzle somewhere too …

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron
UK

Yes, this is Dawson's HMS Shannon vs USS Chesapeake, June 1st 1813.
The battle was brief (15 minutes?) and cost the life of one of the greatest British naval captains of the day, Philip Broke, who died leading the boarding party.

Commentators much more knowledgeable than I have long argued the pros and cons of this battle, but for my money, a key factor in the Shannon's victory was the Royal Marines, who, drilled and trained by Broke, were not only expert marksmen but, from their perches in the rigging, were able to assess their opponents' greatest weakness and take advantage of it.

The picture gives the impression that the battle took place in the middle of the ocean, but in fact it took place off shore witnessed by boatloads of sightseers who, reminiscent of Joseph's afrancesados at Vitoria, lined up to watch the British receive a well deserved drubbing.

Add to the public nature of the humiliating defeat of one of America's vaunted "super frigates", the "six sisters",
and the US navy's fury was understandable. The target of their vengeance was Commodore Barron (though the ship was captained by James Lawrence) who was found guilty of unnecessarily endangering the Chesapeake and, if I remember correctly, banned from service for five years. He never (again, if I remember correctly) fought again.

As for your professional framer, Private Matter, if your painting is indeed a giclee style reproduction, you might want to look elsewhere for advice. On the other hand, there are companies where you can purchase a hand painted copy of famous paintings, and if this is true of yours, then he is very astute in recognizing the brushwork as not being the work of an experienced professional.

In any event, felicitations on finding a picture that gives you so much pleasure

Cheers,
Phil