peterx | 20 Mar 2016 10:33 a.m. PST |
I notice our gamer population getting older and greyer at game conventions. I was thinking about how to bring young people into the hobby so playing with toy soldiers and rules doesn't go the way of the dodo. I had some ideas. I think we offer free tickets to kids under a certain age at game cons, but do we offer half priced tickets to all students? What else could we do about encouraging young people? More zombie games, post apocalyptic games, Japanese animation themed games, more pirate games, more simple rules that are easily learned? What else? |
MajorB | 20 Mar 2016 10:34 a.m. PST |
I notice our gamer population getting older and greyer at game conventions. I wouldn't worry too much, I remember people saying the same thing 30 years ago. |
MajorB | 20 Mar 2016 10:38 a.m. PST |
And of course the thing to remember about game conventions in the US is that they are usually residential and involve long distance travel. That makes attaendance at such a convention a pretty expensive option. If you are a teenager you're not going to have the disposable income (or possibly even the parental willingness) to attend. The old and grey ones OTOH … |
Martin Rapier | 20 Mar 2016 10:41 a.m. PST |
I can't say this is something which keeps me awake at night. |
Tgerritsen | 20 Mar 2016 10:44 a.m. PST |
Or start running miniatures games at the conventions the kids do go to. I don't see PAX, GenCon or Origins having any lack of kids. |
Yesthatphil | 20 Mar 2016 11:00 a.m. PST |
False premise … it isn't dying out but if it were would it be worth saving? More zombie games, post apocalyptic games, Japanese animation themed games, more pirate games, more simple rules that are easily learned? What else? … if that is the future, maybe not? But Military History, toy soldier collecting and wargames are probably at the peak of their all time popularity and I don't expect that to be compromised any time soon. Phil |
JSchutt | 20 Mar 2016 11:59 a.m. PST |
Attendance by young people at conventions usually follows or begins with participation in and running games at "Friendly Local Gamestores." This is where they can discover networks where the subject of conventions comes up. The rise or fall in the health of FLG's is probably a primary indicator if the hobby is growing, staying the same or languishing. |
USAFpilot | 20 Mar 2016 12:06 p.m. PST |
I never attended a wargame convention until I was in my 30's, mainly because I didn't know such a thing even existed. I played Dungeons & Dragons when I was in middle school because my older brother learned about it from a friend at his high school. Around this time a work colleague of my Dad introduced us to my first real table top wargame with lots of figures, it was called "1776" I think. I'm in my 40's now, and it has only been in the last decade that I started to regularly attend conventions and collect games and figures. I think this has always been a niche hobby that most people don't even know about. I would think that with the Internet this hobby will grow as the word gets out. |
Winston Smith | 20 Mar 2016 12:16 p.m. PST |
There is no magic BB to "force these damn kids today" to play with toys the we want them too. Otto should be chiming in any minute now with quotes from 'zines from the 60s and 70s bemoaning the greying of the hobbie. And I imagine stamp collectors and model railroad enthusiasts are bemoaning the same thing. The Hobby is something I do to amuse myself and my friends. If it turns out we are the last of a dying breed, at least my grave goods will give future archaeologists something to puzzle over. The Hobby is not an entity to which I owe any allegiance or fealty. It is something I do. I have no obligation to "grow" it, whatever that means. If kids today want to pick up on it, that's nice. And what is wrong with simple rules that are easy to play? You talk as if that is something bad and to be avoided. |
MajorB | 20 Mar 2016 12:29 p.m. PST |
The rise or fall in the health of FLG's is probably a primary indicator if the hobby is growing, staying the same or languishing. The FLGS has largely been replaced by online services. It is no longer a reliable barometer of the health or otherwise of the hobby. |
Ferd45231 | 20 Mar 2016 12:38 p.m. PST |
Get your darn toy soldiers off my green felt, carn sarn ya! |
Yesthatphil | 20 Mar 2016 12:47 p.m. PST |
The FLGS has largely been replaced by online services. It is no longer a reliable barometer of the health or otherwise of the hobby. I definitely think this is the case re historical wargaming in a UK perspective. The 'FLGS' has long been an irrelevance. Phil |
peterx | 20 Mar 2016 1:12 p.m. PST |
Winston Smith, I do like games with easy to learn rules that flow easily and are fun and fast to play as well. Some gamers seem to like complex games with lots of details to track. That's fine too. I also am happy to play my games with my figures etc., but if the hobby industry dies off for lack of customers, then we will have no new rules to buy, and no new shiny miniatures to purchase. So, my interest is somewhat selfish. I also teach young people, and I think they can learn a great deal from tabletop wargames, but there are many demands on their time and many computer /virtual entertainments available to them that we never had when we were young. I searched old TMP posts about the age of gamers. In 2002, our average age was in our 30s. In 2005, it seemed we were mostly in our 40s (that was fast). Now I suppose our average age is in our 50s. So, on TMP at least, we are aging as a group. Fall-In, Cold Wars and Historicon gamers seem older and greyer too, compared to 2004 when I started going. There is that. |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 20 Mar 2016 1:25 p.m. PST |
I see far too many choices in both figure manufacturers and rules available. It can be very intimidating for people trying to get into the hobby. If we could go back to two or three manufacturers and publishers for a given genre, it would make the hobby much more accessible to the new guys. |
Allen57 | 20 Mar 2016 1:53 p.m. PST |
To grow the hobby someone (maybe local game clubs) have to start putting on demo and participation games at places the kids frequent. While not a good example these days what got me interested in miniatures was a huge display at the Chicago Public Library put up by the Military Miniatures Society of Illinois. Something along that line using non game venues is needed to expose more kids to the hobby. Unless you are already involved game conventions are too expensive for kids and they have no reason to go to an FLGS unless they are already interested in gaming. |
Winston Smith | 20 Mar 2016 2:16 p.m. PST |
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Larry R | 20 Mar 2016 2:39 p.m. PST |
Even though numbers seemed down at Cold Wars, I thought there were more kids there than I've ever remembered seeing. |
Weasel | 20 Mar 2016 2:48 p.m. PST |
I think it's better than ever but my few cents: A: Take the kids seriously. They're not idiots. B: There's no harm in being accessible. Accessible doesn't mean "dumb". D&D is ridiculously complex and they've gotten a great market of young people. C: Be in touch with the times a bit. D: Kids gravitate towards scifi and fantasy games, not because of some nonsense about how kids don't appreciate history (despite them clocking thousands of hours in Crusader Kings and Assassins Creed on the computer or playstation), but because those are the games that actually will tell you how to get started, how to set up and where to go. |
StarfuryXL5 | 20 Mar 2016 2:52 p.m. PST |
Don't really care about a next generation or "growing the hobby." After I die, it won't matter if the hobby dries up and blows away. I had fun while it lasted. |
Ran The Cid | 20 Mar 2016 3:03 p.m. PST |
The hobby is doing fine, its all a matter of where you look. Chicago has 2 great conventions – Adepticon and Little Wars. At 40 something, I'm part of the older third of the gamers at Adepticon. At Little Wars, I'm part of the younger third…. |
PiersBrand | 20 Mar 2016 3:31 p.m. PST |
Thus hobby has been dying for the last 40 years apparently… thats some death ride. Maybe people come to the hobby later in life too, after 'girls and beer'. Hence more people with grey hair. |
Legbiter | 20 Mar 2016 3:32 p.m. PST |
I did my bit on this, and am gaming the grandkids. Meantime, my goddam cheating son isn't getting away with ANYTHING! |
Mute Bystander | 20 Mar 2016 5:13 p.m. PST |
Is there an echo here? Been hearing this for so long I categorize it as an urban gamer legend. |
20thmaine | 20 Mar 2016 5:41 p.m. PST |
@Yesthatphil – I've nothing against zombie and anime games per se – but if that's all the hobby had to offer then I'd check-out before I check-out |
Flashman14 | 20 Mar 2016 7:10 p.m. PST |
One thing different from when I got in in the early 80's was the presence of at least a trio of game stores in the area. I'm sure many kids stumbled across it quite by accident. Today, very few shops seem to be able to make a living with a brick and mortar operation. But one could stumble across it just easy I 'spose on the net. |
kallman | 20 Mar 2016 7:17 p.m. PST |
As some have already stated I for one did not start going to gaming conventions until I was in my 40's. It was not I did not collect and play miniature wargames it was because I did not know of them and there is the income issue. Transportation is a HUGE issue for young people especially if they are in high school. We recently learned this was a factor in regards getting young people to attend events at our libraries. It was not a case that they thought going to the library was lame, no, it was a case of being able to arrange transportation that keep them away. So frankly I would not worry about the so called aging of the hobby. Such talk has been about for a long time. Same arguments are heard among railroad modelers and still that hobby manages to keep going. |
ubercommando | 21 Mar 2016 5:38 a.m. PST |
The cycle of gaming: Youthful discovery – misspent secondary school and college – local gaming society – girls, marriage, kids, work…hobby on hold – return in your late 30s/early 40s – grumpy old gamer – introduce games to your children and their friends, cycle begins again. |
ochoin | 21 Mar 2016 7:29 a.m. PST |
If someone would start a thread on, "How to stop the hobby drying out?" we could discuss various spirits & wines. Much more fun. |
Lee Brilleaux | 21 Mar 2016 7:36 a.m. PST |
Some people want to bring youngsters into our weird little hobby. Others are happy to play with those who already do so. Both are fine. I would suggest, however, that even if you aren't actually trying to bring in new players, please don't drive them away. Don't be snarky. Don't put down the games they are attracted to. Don't mention that you lost a leg fighting the Nazis so they could play with unpainted space marines. Your friends already know what a jerk you are, but keep that to yourself. |
Old Wolfman | 21 Mar 2016 7:42 a.m. PST |
Seen some younger kids playing Flames Of War,even had some at CincyCon playing Aerodrome. |
davbenbak | 21 Mar 2016 7:48 a.m. PST |
I have been GMing at a kid friendly convention (let face it not all cons are)for a few years now and plan on running a game with unpainted Marx plastic 54mm ACW figures. VERY hands on for kids with only a few rules to keep things moving along. |
YogiBearMinis | 21 Mar 2016 9:31 a.m. PST |
Most historical periods are inaccessible unless you are guided by a veteran: half of the rules being used by fans are OOP, the figures are scattered across obscure online-only manufacturers, and much terrain is either super-expensive or handmade. I think history is less popular than decades ago, though the History Channel provides publicity. Flames of War has a LOT of younger players, with an average age probably 15 years younger than the hobby's overall average, not just because WWII is well-known but IMHO because entry is much, much easier. There are TONS of younger miniature gamers out there, but as mentioned above they all play fantasy or sci-fi. If there were better opportunities for these gamers to SEE historical games and then easily buy and begin playing in these periods, the number of historical gamers would start increasing. |
Weasel | 21 Mar 2016 11:31 a.m. PST |
Yup. YogiBearMinis nails it 100%. People new to the hobby play the games that are actually accessible. Flames of War will tell you how to play the game, what your guys should look like, a basic history lesson and the figures come in platoon packs already. Napoleonics? Okay, here's the rule book, buy the figures in packs that have no relation to any game, go buy some ospreys for painting advice and learn French and German to figure out any of the books the self-proclaimed gatekeepers insist you must read to figure it out. There's often this pearl-clutching mania that if an accessible game existed, then that must mean the end of the hobby for "real games". By now, you'd figure that Flames of War would have disproven that, but I guess not. |
Yesthatphil | 21 Mar 2016 1:55 p.m. PST |
I see no signs at all of history being less popular or less accessible (maybe it's a national thing). I see a tendency for fantasy/sci-fi enthusiasts automatically to assume that is what would be popular and accessible (but that can be a self-fulfilling prophesy). I have no interest in either and find youngsters just as interested in historical wargames (more so probably) … As one youngster quotably said (eyes wide open) to me over an Egyptian game we were presenting … 'Wow! So this is like Warhammer only better 'cos it really happened !!!' Yeah – I couldn't have put it better. I would echo MJS's comments but I wouldn't assume that the games they are attracted to have to be zombies or some movie kitsch … I started going to events as a 13/14 year old interested in history and wargaming. Back then nobody patronised me by assuming I would be interested in something more accessible. People did what they were interested in – and if you showed an enthusiasm, they would take you at face value, explain the game to you and let you have a go. I try to show the same respect to potential enthusiasts and casual visitors today (whatever their age-group): I think the universal, level society (all fellow enthusiasts) is one of the great assets of wargaming – age is irrelevant it is interest that counts. If wargaming withers because it has become boring, so be it. But I don't think it has anything to worry about on that score and all the signs I see (for the historical game, at least) are positive. Phil |
Weasel | 21 Mar 2016 4:07 p.m. PST |
Assassins Creed sells 10+ million copies a year and kids clock up 300 hours in Europa Universalis and Crusader Kings on Steam. Kids are interested just fine in history. They're not marketed history, because people my age think they're too dumb to "get it". One of the best things I ever read from a (now old) guy who gamed with Gary Gygax as a teenager was that Gary treated him like any other player.
He didn't get any special treatment but he also didn't get any less respect. When you were at the table, you were a player. |
MrMagoo | 21 Mar 2016 5:11 p.m. PST |
I'll chime in here, since I've been playing miniature wargames (all genres) since the late 1970's. There are more options and availability of games than there's ever been. We literally have an embarrassment of riches in the hobby. Hardly a sign that the hobby is dying or on its way out. as far as the convention attendees go, I, like others didn't regularly attend conventions when I was young, unless they were local. For the past 10 years or so, I've been going to Kublacon in San Francisco, but that's the only convention I go to. I wouldn't gauge the health of the hobby by the relative age of the convention-goers, although, there is a large contingent of young players around, including for the past three years, my teenage son. |
jgibbons | 21 Mar 2016 5:20 p.m. PST |
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ubercommando | 22 Mar 2016 7:12 a.m. PST |
What is needed for historical gaming is more of the Flames of War approach. Rules, figures in unit packs, painting guides, paint packs and history all marketed under one banner and easily accessible. Warlord are on the cusp of doing this; they've done it for Bolt Action but they could easily do it for Black Powder and Hail Caesar as well. What put me off historical wargaming when I was in my teens was how inaccessible it was and there was no one to help. You were expected to find everything yourself from obscure sources, out of print books (sometimes in foreign languages), track down more obscure shops or else convince your parents to write you checks so you could mail order them and even when you had done all that and painted them up some old lag at your local club would say "that's wrong" or "we don't like those rules here". |
Yesthatphil | 22 Mar 2016 10:19 a.m. PST |
What put me off historical wargaming when I was in my teens was how inaccessible it was and there was no one to help. You were expected to find everything yourself from obscure sources, out of print books (sometimes in foreign languages), track down more obscure shops or else convince your parents to write you checks so you could mail order them and even when you had done all that and painted them up some old lag at your local club would say "that's wrong" or "we don't like those rules here". Did this really happen to you … ? I've never known that happen … certainly not to me or any of my wargaming friends. I had no local club but joined the Society of Ancients at 14 and got nothing but help and encouragement. The then older generation of wargamers were absolutely the best and most receptive I ever met. Phil |
Old Contemptibles | 22 Mar 2016 1:34 p.m. PST |
We need a "Graying of the Hobby" board. I have been hearing about the demise of the hobby for 20 years or more. Show me some statistics to support this supposition? It is not my job to grow the hobby. That is up to the business community. The folks selling the stuff and store owners. I put on games and we often times get players 18 or younger. Young people will join in or not. They may have other things to do than to study more history. Its like what one of our regular players who usually brings his son along to participate, said when he didn't have his son in tow. "My son discovered girls and he doesn't have time for Borodino any more. But he will come around, eventually." I really think this a case of shouting "the sky is falling!" It most certainly isn't. I believe the historical miniature gaming hobby is stronger than ever. Until someone or some group does some hard research on this issue and come up with some real numbers we are not going to know for sure. |
Old Contemptibles | 22 Mar 2016 1:39 p.m. PST |
When we get newbies of any age, we tell them don't buy anything for now. We have all the figures, rules and terrain. Just do a little reading and show up to the games after a while you will figure out what period, scale and rules you want. Here is the deal. To be in this hobby you have to love history. If you don't love history. Hated or hate it in school and if you don't like to read, then this may not be your hobby. |
etotheipi | 22 Mar 2016 2:59 p.m. PST |
Steal all the grognafds' Grecian Formula. |
Dasher | 02 May 2016 2:04 p.m. PST |
Welcome young people into your games. Run games specifically for youngsters. |