"Star Trek TNG Full Thrust Lite at Cold Wars 2016" Topic
22 Posts
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billclo | 20 Mar 2016 9:42 a.m. PST |
This is a report on a battle that I ran at Cold Wars 2016 in Lancaster PA. This was a Full Thrust Lite variant that portrayed a Klingon attack on Deep Space Nine. There were 34 Klingon vessels versus 10 Federation vessels plus the station. The Klingon objective was to destroy the station, disregarding losses. After 4 turns of furious fighting, the Klingons destroyed the station. In an unusual turn of events, the Klingon players coordinated well, and stuck to their objective, and did not get distracted into dogfighting the Federation ships (which is what I expected the typical convention player to want to do). As a result, only one Federation ship was destroyed, with several others being crippled. Congratulations to the Klingon players for a job well done. Overall casualties were 15 Klingon ships of varying sizes, 1 Federation Akira class, Deep Space Nine, and 11 Runabouts. The Runabouts were not much of a factor as more than half of them were destroyed by Klingon fire before they even got within weapons range (player running them didn't use their secondary move to get them into range to fire on Turn 1, which surprised me). I had initially used the old style Full Thrust mechanic of alternating ship fire, with all damage + threshold checks occurring immediately, but as the first turn progressed, it became obvious that it was taking too long, with players getting restless to proceed. I switched to simultaneous fire, with all targets designated before firing for the rest of the game, and it worked well enough that I think I will stick with this method for future runs of the game. I also have to either include the reinforcements in the initial order of battle to make the Klingons work harder for their victory, or move up the reinforcements to arriving during turn 1 movement (and bring them out of warp a little closer as well). I do have to agree with what one person said in that if the Klingons really want to kill the station, there is little the Feds can do to stop that. About the only thing I could think of to keep the Klingons from just hitting the afterburners and overrunning the station would be some well placed terrain to force them to slow down and maneuver more, but this would only delay the inevitable. The play aids seemed to be well received, and the ship sheets worked well, except that I have to adjust the text size of the Klingon disruptors as the size is a little too small for some players. Easy fix. I had numerous compliments on the miniatures and game map. Several players and spectators wanted more information on which miniatures were used and how to get them, and a couple players wanted the rules and SSDs (plus the Project Continuum rules links) so they could try the game at home. :) The game was full (6 players), and I had at least 3 more players wanting in that I was not able to accommodate. Perhaps I can fiddle things so that it can take one or two more next time. Initial setup pics:
After end of movement on Turn 1:
After end of Attack Phase on Turn 1:
After end of movement on Turn 2:
After end of Attack Phase Turn 2:
After end of movement on Turn 3:
After end of Attack Phase Turn 3:
After end of movement on Turn 4:
After end of Attack Phase on Turn 4, resulting in the destruction of Deep Space Nine:
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TheBeast | 20 Mar 2016 10:01 a.m. PST |
1) Waiting for one of my fellow curmudgeons stepping up and saying 'It's not Lite, it's Light!' Me, I like calling it Lite. ;->= 2) Nothing light about that table! WOOF! 3)"I switched to simultaneous fire,…" Agreed, especially with six players, but anything more than two has somebody waiting too long, even with the 'well, nothing else will effect you, go ahead over there.' Well done! Doug |
John Leahy | 20 Mar 2016 12:41 p.m. PST |
That is very cool! Probably the only way to balance it is to requre DS9 not to be destroyed. |
billclo | 20 Mar 2016 2:22 p.m. PST |
Yeah, it might be an interesting twist to require it to be captured, or destroy all 3 outer sections perhaps. :) |
Brother Jim | 21 Mar 2016 10:15 a.m. PST |
Is that the Attack Wing DS9 or is it a model kit? Thanks. |
John Leahy | 21 Mar 2016 1:14 p.m. PST |
Looks like the model kit. I have one and it's about that size. |
billclo | 21 Mar 2016 2:16 p.m. PST |
The station is an Star Trek Attack Wing model. |
jimklein1966 | 21 Mar 2016 6:30 p.m. PST |
Looks awesome! I hope you mentioned to folks you helped write the Continuum rules. :). You need to run this at pensacon one year!!! |
billclo | 22 Mar 2016 2:35 a.m. PST |
Jim, I did. I always leave the rules out on the table for people to browse through. I think I have a convert; a couple of friends were into Star Trek Attack Wing, and the game had fizzled out in their area. They couldn't sell their minis, and wanted a way to re-use their minis, which my game seems to have sparked an interest in a Full Thrust conversion for. I'm working on putting together the convention game stuff, plus links to the FT:PC rules and where to buy them (the guy said he wanted to get the printed rules). So I was going to send them the rules, my Trek TNG conversion, and the convention conversion and hopefully they'll go from there. :) Wish I could run it there, Jim. I may run it at a future Origins though (should be going this year, but the deadline for event submission was before I had run the game and I wasn't sure how it would be received and if it worked okay or not). With some variable victory conditions and maybe some character cards, woo hoo, I think it'd be a blast. :) |
TheBeast | 22 Mar 2016 5:53 a.m. PST |
Looks like the model kit. I have one and it's about that size. The Attack Wing one is a monster, as well. I was thinking it was a bit small for the AMT-Ertl, but I find them too close to be sure in a piccie. Then, of course, there's the Eaglemoss, which I've never seen in person. Do let us know when you've got a 'package', Bill. Even if one doesn't have a lot of Attack Wing, which I do, and Tactics, and…, many of us have MicroMachines languishing. ;->= Doug |
billclo | 22 Mar 2016 3:50 p.m. PST |
I can send out the materials to whomever wants it. Email is: "bill clo dude at com cast dot net. It's a bit of a work in progress, but the conversion ships and rules seem to be pretty decent. I'll drop you the "package" via email shortly, Doug. |
TheBeast | 24 Mar 2016 5:39 a.m. PST |
And I'm STILL reading through. ;->= THANKS BILL! Doug |
billclo | 24 Mar 2016 12:12 p.m. PST |
Any change to your initial impressions, Doug? ;) |
emckinney | 29 Mar 2016 3:15 p.m. PST |
A good game, and a good scenario, should present the players with a dilemma each turn. The dilemma can be about objectives, it can be purely tactical, or it can be a mix. For example, "If I go for objective A, I make myself vulnerable to ship 1, but if I engage ship 1, then I may not have enough time to achieve my objective …" "If I turn to get my fresh shield between my and my enemy, my best weapons will be out of arc. Is it more important for this ship to stay alive a little longer, or to do as much damage as possible to the enemy as fast as possible?" By making losses irrelevant to the Klingons, you've removed one dilemma: they can use any tactic that they want, so long as it allows them to out-gun the station. This makes it pretty easy for the Klingon players to turn the game into at dice-fest at the same time that they suck all of the fun out of it. Even when losses are irrelevant, the Federation mobile forces can force the Klingons to make choices by getting behind them and attriting their firepower. Or they could, but Full Thrust doesn't have faced defenses, so this is irrelevant. Yes, the Federation ships are going be be out of the Klingon firing arcs, but the Klingons want to use their firepower on the station anyhow. If this was Star Fleet Battles (SFB), weak Klingon rear shields would make it very risky to allow the Federation to get behind them. That threat forces the Klingons into a dilemma (or trilemma): take the punishment, turn their entire force to crush the Federation mobile units, or detach part of their force to engage the Federation ships. Of course, whether detaching part of the Klingon force makes sense depends on whether the game system allows one unit to "pin" another unit to any reasonable degree. If there's no time limit for the Klingons, there's not much of a dilemma: turn the whole force to engage the Federation ships, wipe them out, and then destroy the station at their leisure. If there is a time limit, the Federation is faced with a dilemma: sending out their mobile forces risks defeat in detail, but it could pull off enough Klingon ships to allow the station to win a shoot-out or it could run the Klingons out of time. The problem is that Full Thrust really, really rewards concentration of fire (which is generally the case with other space games--Battlefleet Gothic's blast markers made it desireable to spread out fire). Meanwhile, the Federation players don't have dilemmas either. Sending their mobile forces to outflank the Klingons is pointless because there's no way to outflank defenses that don't have facings, the Klingons have no incentive to waste firepower on the Federation mobile forces (so keeping the Federation mobile forces out of the Klingon firing arcs doesn't matter), and separating the mobile forces from DS9 invites defeat in detail. If the Klingons have no time limit, and the Federation mobile forces sally, the Klingons' can easily engage the Federation ships with the complete Klingon fleet and annihilate it before coming into DS9's most effective weapon range. Full Thrust tends to resolve as Lanchester Law combat, so defeating the enemy in detail is always a goal (and splitting your forces is generally bad idea). Of course, the Klingons only need to do this if some change is made to the scenario so that simply overrunning the base is no longer the best possible tactic. Please not that I'm not bashing Full Thrust, or any other system. "Horses for courses" is a principle that you should always keep in mind. A thoroughbred s not the best choice for steeplechase … Full Thrust is a fun game to play, but a game's got to know its limitations. If this was a fleet engagement where getting behind the enemy got you out of firing arcs and let you pick them to death at your leisure, then Full Thrust would work quite well. When the sole objective of the scenario can't maneuver, it doesn't work so well. I could go on ad nauseum, but I imagine that most of you are already nauseated, so I'll stop now. |
billclo | 30 Mar 2016 9:02 a.m. PST |
I've been putting together some alternative victory conditions, based upon some discussions on the Facebook group, and changing the Klingon's main victory condition to capture the station. Part of the problem is that I have few players I can tap for play test sessions; the game only got 3 solitaire sessions and one play test run with a grand total of 3 players (including myself). In that one play test game, some of the Klingons engaged the Fed ships, and the rest engaged the station, doing serious damage, but in the end losing enough ships that they couldn't win. That prompted adding the 2 heavy battlecruisers and changing the start position of one of the forces further to one side. I am considering adding the reinforcements to the initial Fed force, giving the Klingons new objectives, and put a little more time pressure on the Klingons in the form of additional reinforcements coming in, say turn 4 or 5. Yeah, unfortunately Full Thrust does have it's limitations; I agree the lack of directional defenses is a real issue. When I developed a new faction they used directional defenses, but it just didn't work out vs ships that didn't use directional defenses. The balance point was too hard to achieve, so it tended to lead to lopsided games one way or another. So I had to abandon the directional defenses approach. |
COMMODORE LMV | 03 Apr 2016 8:15 p.m. PST |
I was one of the Klingon players in this game. Once the GM adjusted the movement, this game was awesome. He did a great job with the models, blending companies for scale. The charts were unbelievable. I hope he laminates for reuse next time. I felt guilty for writing on them. He was very accommodating and very generous with giving us information on his models and stats. I give the game an A and the GM an A++. Thank You! |
billclo | 04 Apr 2016 6:31 p.m. PST |
My pleasure, Commodore. :) Yeah, the first turn was dragging with the sequential firing. I thought it would introduce some uncertainty to when the station would fire, and allow for some decision making as to which ships to fire first. Took way too long though, as we discovered. Next time will be simultaneous fire, not sequential, that's for sure. I probably will laminate the charts/ship sheets once I get the designs fixed. I didn't see any real flaws, so laminating them will be big deal. |
Cuchulainn | 26 Apr 2016 5:55 a.m. PST |
Sounds like a really good game. As I'm at work I can't access certain sites, and your photos are also blocked so I'm not able to see them either. One question, and again not currently having the full facts in front of me, but did DS9 have its own defences in your game? DS9's on British TV at the moment, and it was attacked a few weeks ago by a joint Dominion/Cardassian force; that station has some serious firepower with which to defend itself. The shields aren't too sloppy either! Mind you, it did still fall to the bad guys in the end… :( |
billclo | 26 Apr 2016 9:28 a.m. PST |
Yep, DS-9 was heavily armed, with 7 Phaser-2s, 5 Phaser-3s, and 3 Photons (Pulse Torps) per outer section (3 of them), and the core had 8 Phaser-3s, 4 Phaser-2s, and 9 Photon launchers (3 facing each of the 3 outer sections). It was a 4-section base, mass 1544, NPV 4514, CPV 6559. Yeah, the photos are hosted on Photobucket, sorry you can't see them. |
Cuchulainn | 26 Apr 2016 12:14 p.m. PST |
At home now and can see the pictures… reeaallly impressive!! :O) DS9 looks fantastic. A shame it got blown up by the Klingons. |
Part time gamer | 14 May 2016 11:33 p.m. PST |
billclo, first Excellent 'table'! Like you I too, (a few yrs ago now) wrote my own ST mini ship/ship game. From the start I knew I wanted simultanious combat.. to me IGO-UGO, is just a bit too unrealistic. It seems to give an unfair advantage to the person who gets the lucky roll to go first. (as if you just stand there and let someone take a 'free shot' at you.) Side note here; I think Warlord games Bolt Action, found a pretty good middle ground w/ the IGO-UGO and simultanious debate, i.e. choosing a die from a bag. It does a great "fog of war" to the game. Not knowing whats going to happen next. Now, I am also 'one of those' thats very curious as to which ships are from Which maker. I recognize the Klingon Vor'cha AC, the Nek'var BB and the Birds of Prey unless wrong as Micro Machines. But the D7's are too small to be M/M. Like your Akira and Steamrunners, I was wondering if the D7 types were Shapeways by chance or are they actual Attack Wing miniatures. I have never played the game or even seen it played. It didnt seem to catch on in my area. Thanks for ALL the great pics.. that game just had to be a blast. |
billclo | 15 May 2016 3:00 a.m. PST |
Hi. The Klingon D7s are meant to be Ktingas, and yes they are Shapeways. I searched high and low for an D7 in about the right size (1.75" long) to no avail before settling for a Shapeways model. The Steamrunners and Akiras are also Shapeways. I was also unable to find commercial miniatures in about the right size, so… Actually, the Negh'Var is not Star Trek Attack Wing; it's one from another small resin maker. Slightly larger than the STAW model. |
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