SteelVictory | 20 Mar 2016 8:48 a.m. PST |
What is the general consensus on John R. Elting's "Sword Around A Throne"? Is it mostly a biography or military history? link Also "Napoleon on the Art of War" by Jay Luvaas? link What about these Napoleon Bonaparte biographies:
Napoleon: A Political Life, Steven Englund link Napoleon: A Biography, Frank McLynn link |
JasonAfrika | 20 Mar 2016 8:58 a.m. PST |
Swords is military history plain and simple. Best book on actual Napoleonic units, tactics, combat. |
abelp01 | 20 Mar 2016 9:03 a.m. PST |
2 thumbs up on Swords, excellent read, I couldn't put it down! |
Texas Jack | 20 Mar 2016 9:18 a.m. PST |
Another big thumbs up for Swords. Elting explains all aspects of Napoleonic armies, and in a very readable way. Excellent book! |
rustymusket | 20 Mar 2016 9:31 a.m. PST |
Very good! I heartily recommend! |
Whirlwind | 20 Mar 2016 9:38 a.m. PST |
Swords Around A Throne is a very good collection of information and anecdotes about Napoleon and the Grande Armee. It has a very easy, readable style. It is particularly good on the evolution of the French Army throughout the period but slightly less strong on the tactics. It is explicitly pro-French and pro-Napoleon and doesn't deal fairly with the Allied armies or their leaders, partly from lack of understanding (the same sources weren't available to Elting as are to a current historian) and partly from bias. So I'd recommend getting hold of and reading a book and using it as a reference for details of the French Army without putting too much faith in it as a fair-minded work of analysis. |
jeffreyw3 | 20 Mar 2016 9:56 a.m. PST |
Whirlwind did a nice summation. |
rmaker | 20 Mar 2016 10:53 a.m. PST |
I agree. But part of Elting's "bias" was the fact that while he read English and French, he didn't, from hat I have been able to find out, read German well (as evidenced by the haphazard translations of Knoetel Jr's caption in Napoleonic Uniforms), and didn't read Russian, Italian, Spanish, or any other European languages at all. |
Pertti | 20 Mar 2016 12:20 p.m. PST |
Would it be a dawghousable offense to summon Brechtel198, take popcorn and cola and enjoy the following discussion? |
James Arnold | 20 Mar 2016 12:46 p.m. PST |
The late colonel and I use to correspond and about the only thing we could completely agree upon was the influence of horse management and care (he served in the armor around the time of the cavalry to tank transition)on the combat effectiveness of cavalry. Swords is a highly entertaining read. Recognize that it is also highly opinionated and, in my opinion,thinly sourced. |
Texas Jack | 20 Mar 2016 1:16 p.m. PST |
This is how things escalate on the Napoleonics board, just in case you are scoring at home. Are you kidding me? Who here is dissing Elting? He and his book are sainted relics I say! |
jeffreyw3 | 20 Mar 2016 1:47 p.m. PST |
Pertti: Yes, yes it would. |
JasonAfrika | 20 Mar 2016 1:52 p.m. PST |
With all due respect Mr.Arnold, who then should we read? Who has written a better book? Since none of the authors were present in 1800 to witness the events in person, who are we to believe? It is a simple, honest question that I am sure I will still get bashed in the head for on here. Like Texas Jack said this ALWAYS happens on the Nap boards. What is absolutely disgusting is the rabid factionlism displayed by the 2 or 3 camps of Nap authors and their partisans. It even shows up on Amazon Book Reviews. It is so unprofessional and childish. I'm DONE with all this nonsense. I'll stick with Chandler, Elting, Esposito, and Dodge and just be happy in my "ignorance" and play my Nap. war games all by myself. |
The Gray Ghost | 20 Mar 2016 2:18 p.m. PST |
It's a fantastic book, I've read mine so many times it's coming apart at the seams |
James Arnold | 20 Mar 2016 2:34 p.m. PST |
Dear All, I did not mean to come across as churlish. Read the book. I did. Enjoy the book. I did. Own the book. I do. And, as with all books, engage your critical facilities as you think about what you read. |
langobard | 21 Mar 2016 2:38 a.m. PST |
I have to agree with Mr Arnold. I love Swords, it is my favourite introduction to the Napoleonic era because it is amazingly easy to read as well as accurate. That said, EVERY history book has to be approached with caution for the simple reason that EVERY historian has an axe to grind! In a sense, the problem with Swords is that it is written in such a beguiling style, we forget that it is still a work of history and that Elting is writing it to convince as many people as possible that his point of view is correct. Which is, of course, what he is supposed to be doing, but there isn't really a problem if we read other books that don't quite agree with him :) |
SJDonovan | 21 Mar 2016 3:54 a.m. PST |
Swords Around a Throne is an excellent, extremely readable book and I would say is a must-have volume for a Napoleonic library. It does have a pro-Bonaparte bias but that is hardly surprising given its subject matter. All the books I've got on Wellington's army have a pro-British bias. It all evens out and the truth is somewhere in the middle. |
vtsaogames | 21 Mar 2016 6:11 a.m. PST |
Swords is well written but it isn't scripture. I do find the references to "crafty Jews" cringe-worthy. |
Marshal Amherst | 21 Mar 2016 6:53 a.m. PST |
Ordered. They must be going fast, one left in stock! |
rmcaras | 21 Mar 2016 9:16 a.m. PST |
But part of Elting's "bias" was the fact that while he read English and French, he didn't, from hat I have been able to find out, read German well (as evidenced by the haphazard translations of Knoetel Jr's caption in Napoleonic Uniforms), and didn't read Russian, Italian, Spanish, or any other European languages at all. Isn't that making an assumption that an historian MUST be capable of reading the language themselves….to equal a capable historian? That doesn't make sense to me. If one can hire a capable translator, and work with them actively….the real work of a historian, IMO, is to be able to interpret the words written by others and make sound assessments, utilizing many and often conflicting points of views…to be as much detective and interpreter of inputs a much as a linguist. If I extend your logic then the person who can read the most languages makes the "best" historian, even if they lack judgement on what they can read. Its not just the words that confound us. Its their meaning as intended and recognizing that not everything written or spoken is the "truth", its that observers point of view, perhaps biased in itself, perhaps unintentionally or intentionally inaccurate. But certainly not the entire picture. |
Bohdan Khmelnytskij | 21 Mar 2016 10:22 a.m. PST |
Not being to read the needed languages is a disservice. Its like driving a car with one eye. |
jeffreyw3 | 21 Mar 2016 11:25 a.m. PST |
Agreed with langobard. I thought Arnold's post was fine…yes, the bar for scholarship keeps going up--take advantage of it. |
Michael Westman | 22 Mar 2016 11:25 a.m. PST |
For the Napoleonic Wars it would be a lot to expect someone to be able to read English, French, German, and Russian, at the very least. It's only been fairly recent that we've been able to get books using Russian sources. This is actually a great time to be able to get books using all the available sources someone can find, and take advantage of the internet to bring them to light and to critique books. That's our job :) |
Brechtel198 | 22 Mar 2016 1:37 p.m. PST |
The late colonel and I use to correspond and about the only thing we could completely agree upon was the influence of horse management and care (he served in the armor around the time of the cavalry to tank transition)on the combat effectiveness of cavalry. Swords is a highly entertaining read. Recognize that it is also highly opinionated and, in my opinion,thinly sourced. Could you give examples of why you believe the book to be 'thinly sourced'? There are over 270 references in the bibliography and over 700 endnotes. As to Colonel Elting's service, he began as an artilleryman in horse drawn French 75s. He also served as an intelligence officer in War II. His service can be found in the latest edition of the Esposito/Elting Atlas, published in 1999. |
Brechtel198 | 22 Mar 2016 1:44 p.m. PST |
I cannot think of, nor have I seen, a more comprehensive work on the organization and functioning of the Grande Armee than Swords in English. And many of the sources used were not used before in English. Colonel Elting graciously gave me 25 volumes of the old La Sabretache dating from 1893 to the 1920s which he used in researching Swords. They are a gold mine of primary source material for the period 1792-1815 which includes letters and after action reports. The volumes average 400 pages each and a good half of them are for 1792-1815. The secondary material in the volumes include material from such authorities as Hollander and General Vanson. The volumes are invaluable in the study of the period. If anyone can think of one that is more comprehensive or accurate I would be most interested in seeing it listed so I can take a look at it. |
Brechtel198 | 22 Mar 2016 1:50 p.m. PST |
-Also "Napoleon on the Art of War" by Jay Luvaas?What about these Napoleon Bonaparte biographies: -Napoleon: A Political Life, Steven Englund -Napoleon: A Biography, Frank McLynn To return to the OP and the above references I would recommend the first one, recognizing that it is a relatively short gleaning of Napoleon's Correspondence, though they are both interesting and very helpful. Englund's biography is worth having, but McLynn's is not one I would use as a reference. There are other biographies on the Great Man which I would recommend, such as Vincent Cronin's, Andrew Roberts' and Michael Broers' along with Englund's. |
Brechtel198 | 22 Mar 2016 3:36 p.m. PST |
…slightly less strong on the tactics… How so? French tactics are explained competently and thoroughly and I have not come across a better explanation of them. Simple, straight-forward, and succinct. |
PhilinYuma | 22 Mar 2016 3:43 p.m. PST |
Kevin: There are other biographies on the Great Man which I would recommend, such as Vincent Cronin's, Andrew Roberts' and Michael Broers' along with Englund's. Yes. As you can imagine, I do not have a large collection of Napoleon's biographies, but of the four that I can see without getting up, I have found Roberts's volume to be the most up-to-date, thorough, and unbiased and Cronin's, like so many of his works, to be eminently readable. Cheers, Phil |
John Miller | 22 Mar 2016 6:07 p.m. PST |
To echo The Gray Ghost above, I have read it so many times, and constantly went back to it for some detail I couldn't remember I had to get a second copy. Thanks, John Miller |
Brechtel198 | 22 Mar 2016 7:06 p.m. PST |
I'm on my fourth copy-two hard cover and two soft cover. |
Marc the plastics fan | 31 Mar 2016 11:46 a.m. PST |
Fun book to read. Perfect for newcomers as it is written in a very friendly style |