Geoffr | 12 Mar 2016 3:30 p.m. PST |
I've always wanted to game this conflict. Can anyone suggest a) what rules would work for it? I was hoping FOW but I'm interested in any suggestions. b) fig manufacturers in 15mm? Many thanks in advance. Geoff |
Weasel | 12 Mar 2016 3:32 p.m. PST |
I'd be inclined to say that most any ww2 rules should do okay. Just go with whatever you like already. |
thabear | 12 Mar 2016 3:40 p.m. PST |
If 15mm is your choice then I suggest Eureka Miniatures here in Melbourne or through one of their worldwide distributors . They have quite an extensive and very good Indo China War range in 15mm . cheers Tom |
Irish Marine | 12 Mar 2016 5:07 p.m. PST |
Try Battlefront WW2 it's by Fire&Fury games. One tank is really two, two figures to a stand are a squad and so forth really good set of rules. |
jdginaz | 13 Mar 2016 12:14 a.m. PST |
"Charlie Don't Surf" by Toofatlardies link |
Jcfrog | 13 Mar 2016 5:14 a.m. PST |
IABSM existing adaptations. For bits of the northern war, looking like a ww2 conflict of sorts. Guerilla in the south might work with charlie don't surf adapted with less support. And scaled firepower. Need chaos a lot for everyone and rigid planning for VM. |
Franck | 13 Mar 2016 7:17 a.m. PST |
Geoffr Eureka make very good French paras but they are mainly for 1951-54 with the MAT 49. And the bush cap is not really suitable for Indo troops. It was more usual in Algérie (54-62). For the 1946-1950 period, French troops wore a mixture of US, British and French uniforms and equipments. Take WWII US infantry but also Australians (Eureka's are great). Ponchardier's SAS were in British paras uniforms in 46 with infantry helmet but they quickly switch the uniform for lighter shirts and shorts. They mainly had Sten and Bren guns and a few French rifles. When cleaning up the area around Hanoi in feb 47 at least one company from 23 RIC (but certainly more) wore British helmets . I did these troops with Battlefront British in Italy on wich I modified the Lee Enfield rifle. I did my Viet Minh regulars mostly with the excellent Eureka range + those from QRF and a lot of modified minis from Battlefront (Finnish), Peter Pig (SCW)and Command Decision (Russians). My "pyjamas noirs" are Battlefront PAVN local forces (no AK47) and Peter Pig Viet Cong with bolt action rifles. |
Blutarski | 14 Mar 2016 6:21 a.m. PST |
IIRC, Bernard Fall's book "Street without Joy" contains some excellent tactical vignettes – one that I especially recall is VM attacks upon isolated French security zone blockhouses. Old book, but well worth a read. B |
catavar | 14 Mar 2016 12:32 p.m. PST |
I use rules for battalion size games. Multi-battalion battles were not uncommon by 1950. If your considering FOW I'm guessing that's not what your looking for. I used Eureka's Indochina and WW2 ranges. French bush hats were usually worn during Vietnams summer and helmets in winter. The caps were worn by French Paratroops. I mixed in some USA and Australian slouch hat figs too. French forces were supplied with UK/USA WW2 leftovers. I used Gurkhas for CEFEO Thais (minus the cutlery). For the Viet Minh I added a few Japanese figs. There's one all camoed up that looks perfect (the uniform isn't visible and the VM used Japanese rifles). The VM also used RCL's. I took a french RCL fig and filed the hat, put static grass on top, and placed a VM crewman behind. I believe most of my vehicles are Old Glory WW2. |
Rudysnelson | 14 Mar 2016 9:20 p.m. PST |
I read a great book over 30 years ago about the war. It was written by a FFL soldier who survived. The interesting part was that he and most of the men in his platoon were ex-waffles SS veterans who had joined the FFL in 1945. One note of irony was one man said he was happy to still be killing Russians even if it was in Vietnam. Their unit was very good at pacifying the region assigned to them. |
Franck | 15 Mar 2016 2:20 a.m. PST |
The caps were worn by French Paratroops. Not sure about that. Paras usually wore berets (or bush hats as other units) and I think caps were not very common in Indo. The only 2 cap wearing units I identified are Bigeard's 6 BPC and Tourret's 8 CHOC (but it doesn't mean they are the only ones !) After the famous Tu Le bandera, Bigeard wanted his men to be immediately identified and gave them a camo beret (beginning of 1953) but he decided to change when he see Brechignac's 1 RCP wearing the same headgear (april 53). 6 BPC then get a small "fisherman styled" hat (raid on Lang Son, july 53). According to Bigeard, 8 CHOC wore a jockey style cap in 53 in Lang Son. In 54 photographs from DBP show them with small caps (lizard type) so is it the same item or did the 6 change another time in between ? All other photographs I know show paratroops with beret. |
Thomas Nissvik | 15 Mar 2016 5:32 a.m. PST |
Geoff, what size game do you want to play? IABSM by TooFatLardies suggested above is for about a company a side, same ballpark as FoW. link Indo-China adaptations for that can be found here: link I am part of the play-test group for adapting the latest TFL rules, Chaing Of Command, for Indo-China, working name Le Coq Indochine. That will be more along a platoon plus support on each side and will be out later this year we hope.
A short report by my buddy Jocke here (we are using 28mm figs): link |
catavar | 16 Mar 2016 3:41 p.m. PST |
Sorry for any confusion regarding caps. When I wrote French I meant French Colonial; not ANV or FFL paratroops. They wore every type of headgear available. There's even a pic of someone wearing a type of camoed baseball cap. Not sure how popular it was but you will find pics of caps being worn in these books: Hell In A Very Small Place The French Indochina War The Last Valley Anyone painting mini's for this conflict should be aware that there wasn't a lot of uniformity to clothing till the 1950's. Clothing didn't hold up well there and CEFEO troops pretty much wore whatever they could get. The VM had different colored uniforms as well. I chose to paint my figs CEFEO uniforms in different colors. Dark green for USA fatigues, light green for french and of course, camo. I've seen pics where each hat worn is in a different color. Others where only one person is wearing a camoed shirt and/or pants. Whatever you do I don't think you can really go wrong. |
Jcfrog | 14 Apr 2016 9:29 a.m. PST |
Berets in indo only to go out to bars and impress the ladies. Would ( felt kind?) rot and fall apart besides being useless in combat. Bush hats and helmets plus anything convenient you like… |
Dentwist | 16 Apr 2016 3:52 a.m. PST |
We are going to use Rapid Fire for Dien Bien Phu. RE headgear, from the pictures I have seen from DBP hat were common in all units, and berets are reasonable common. Its my understanding that many of the local troops wore them, militias that is. |
Jcfrog | 16 Apr 2016 11:29 a.m. PST |
Pictures in combat zone or trying to look good? And south, urban or boonies? Headgear. Still berets of the time in wet places, rain as in Se asia. Forget it. |
Dentwist | 17 Apr 2016 3:38 a.m. PST |
These are from DBP [URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/C905173/media/berets_zpsz5fbycxf.png.html]
[/URL] [URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/C905173/media/b0a48a9a60948840c3503433baf58750_zpsevbx0efz.jpg.html]
[/URL] Hmong troops who tried to fight therir way in: [URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/C905173/media/113373001_zpshcu6shj1.jpg.html]
[/URL] These is also an image from the opening day of Castor" which shows beret wearing local irregulars in the village it self, but I couldn't find it. (Getty Images) I doult that they were the woolen ones worn in Europe |
Rick Don Burnette | 18 Apr 2016 8:24 a.m. PST |
Yes, pick up a copy of Fall's Street without Joy and then see if you want to do any of the battles, from the disaster of Mobile Group 100 or the fate of th PK bunkers on the de Lattre line. All you will need is FUF troops as all the Viets would be hidden and worse, the French Ubion Forces player wouldnt know when and where the ambush would take place So go ahead and do the 1950 frontier fortd battles or Dien Bien Phu and as the FUF player try not to lose as badly |
catavar | 18 Apr 2016 1:00 p.m. PST |
The French weren't always on the losing side. They frequently gave as good as they got. The VM launched multi-battalion attacks against the De Lattre Line, in the open, in 1951 and got hammered. Even the VM acknowledged things didn't go as planned and shifted their focus west. In 1952 the CEFEO established a (multi-battalion size) base deep in the jungle at Na San. Like DBP it was surrounded and attacked by the VM. This time the French held out. They tried it again in 1953. It's a very interesting time to read about and game. |
Rick Don Burnette | 18 Apr 2016 8:47 p.m. PST |
True, the Na San hedgehog survived, but was withdrawn before it was submerged and there was even a time at the Seat of the Border Prefecture aka DBP, when the VM faltered causing Giap to discipline his men Yet for the most part, especially after 1949, it was depressing for the FUF Worse for the gamer is that one side is rarely seen Fall's description of the Viets camoflage discipline is instructive |
mashrewba | 19 Apr 2016 12:39 p.m. PST |
It's worth mentioning that french troops pulled their beret down on the left so British and US figs will be no good unless you can get past this… I like Peter Pigs PBI for Indo china -especially good for human wave attacks. |
Fred Cartwright | 19 Apr 2016 2:39 p.m. PST |
Peter Pig do suitable beret heads for conversions. The WW1 Alpine beret for a bigger floppy style and a modern FFL style smaller beret. |
catavar | 24 Apr 2016 11:01 p.m. PST |
Mash's post made me check my Eureka figs berets. They are tilted down to the left. Neat-o! |
catavar | 29 Apr 2016 4:45 p.m. PST |
Since berets came up I came across some info I read quite a while ago (don't recall where so you may want to check it). Early in the conflict units wore different colored berets. Airborne/SAS berets where red; Metro Demi-Brigade were blue; Commando (native irregulars)/Korean (GM100)/Choc were black; FFL were green while some made their own from camouflaged cloth. Native members in FFL units wore white berets off duty. Happy painting! |
monongahela | 30 Apr 2016 8:17 p.m. PST |
I think Crossfire would allow for some of the asymmetrical features with it unique movement/ turn structure. Set up a French force and have the Viets move around attempting to be in position to fully engage. Or perhaps mark a few terrain features as ambush spots on a map and let the French stumble around the table looking for the Viets. |