ochoin | 12 Mar 2016 5:46 a.m. PST |
At the club, I was rebuked by the Club Know-it All for wilfully referring to my "Scotch Napoleonic infantry". I was told I should know better: "Scotch is a drink, Scots or Scottish are the people." Well, until the end of the C19th, "Scotch" was the preferred word for the people north of the border & this was still a viable choice until the mid 1900s when the Edinburgh Grammar Nazis orchestrated the change to "Scots". So if it was good enough for Wellington to refer to his "Scotch infantry", or Burns to use it in his poetry, it's good enough for me. BTW Americans used to refer to migrants from Ulster as "Scotch-Irish". Is this still current? |
Gone Fishing | 12 Mar 2016 6:01 a.m. PST |
Grammar Nazis are exasperating wherever one finds them. In my experience, most educated Americans use "Scots" and would think you were discussing the drink if you mentioned "Scotch". I do remember my grandfather, however, who was Scotch, referring to himself as such, leaving my youthful self somewhat confused as to whether he was referring to his beloved country or the most prevalent liquid coursing through his veins. You're absolutely right about the switch in usage, though: in older works the word is used all the time. |
ochoin | 12 Mar 2016 6:16 a.m. PST |
I should cut the fellow some slack. After all he was English & not expected to know much….about Scotland 87)) |
McKinstry | 12 Mar 2016 6:16 a.m. PST |
BTW Americans used to refer to migrants from Ulster as "Scotch-Irish". Is this still current? Still very common in the part of Pennsylvania I grew up in. |
zippyfusenet | 12 Mar 2016 6:21 a.m. PST |
BTW Americans used to refer to migrants from Ulster as "Scotch-Irish". Is this still current? As far as I can tell, 'Scotch-Irish' is still current in academic use, cf. the recent works of Dr. Grady McWhiney, Attack and Die and Cracker Culture. However, I have been sucker-punched by grammar bullies who have tried to foist their abominable neologism 'Scots-Irish' on me. (I will not dignify them as Grammar Nazis, they are contemptible blithering little punks who do not rise to the dignity of Nazis.) I despise the term 'Scots-Irish', and so does the ghost of Andrew Jackson. You can ignore me, but you do *not* want the ghost of Old Hickory angry with you. |
14Bore | 12 Mar 2016 6:31 a.m. PST |
I drink Scotch and have Scotch figurres. |
Oh Bugger | 12 Mar 2016 6:46 a.m. PST |
the recent works of Dr. Grady McWhiney Thirty years ago Zippy you are getting old as am I, I remember buying it. The Scots like to be called Scots and have done since I was a child. I'm happy to accomodate that and so it's Scots Irish ect for me. Scotch, like Erse, seems anaochronistic now unless we are talking about the drink. I note my edition of the journals of settlers in the Revolutionary period is called Scottish and Irish Diaries rather than Scotch and Irish and its 40 years old. Edinburgh grammar Naziz indeed. |
The Gray Ghost | 12 Mar 2016 6:47 a.m. PST |
I agree with Zippy and use the word Scotch-Irish or Scotch when referring to my ancestry and feel nothing but disdain for those grammar bullies |
cosmicbank | 12 Mar 2016 7:10 a.m. PST |
Scotch-Irish is short for "Heck I don't know where my fore foathers are from" |
Pictors Studio | 12 Mar 2016 7:17 a.m. PST |
I have Scotch Eggs for breakfast sometimes. I don't put any Scotch in them, so it must be more than a drink. |
Oh Bugger | 12 Mar 2016 7:20 a.m. PST |
Decisive point to Pictors. |
Zargon | 12 Mar 2016 7:25 a.m. PST |
Ah Scotch or Scots that's the rub, depends if as a Englishman how much I would like to offend man from north of the Coldstream and how much he has offended me. After all single malt is in short supply chaps :) |
Sigwald | 12 Mar 2016 8:03 a.m. PST |
The Scots guards protected the south east portion of Iraq while scotch guard protects my sofa. |
Cerdic | 12 Mar 2016 8:16 a.m. PST |
All the people from Scotland I have met prefer to be called Scots. They will often remind those who get it wrong that 'scotch' is a drink. Or an egg. Depending on the circumstances, they may then give a Glasgow kiss…. |
Geoffrey Sponge | 12 Mar 2016 8:40 a.m. PST |
Calling a Scot "Scotch" these days would almost invariably receive the reply "Scotch is a drink". Scotch is seen as very old-fashioned and rather patronising (or could even be taken as a deliberate insult in certain circumstances). Having said that, older Scots occasionally still use it, including cringe-makingly, my mother but unlikely to be used by anyone under 60. It's associated with the "Shortbread tin" view of Scotland that we are trying desperately to shake off. John. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 12 Mar 2016 9:03 a.m. PST |
My mother's side of the family features names such as Robertson,Ould,and Clardy,and always called themselves Scotch-Irish. I'll have to look for my copy of Jim Webb's book. BTW, I remember reading somewhere that, after the Union, educated Sco--er,people from Scotland,called themselves "Englishmen"! May have been a class thing. |
boggler | 12 Mar 2016 10:14 a.m. PST |
Definitely Scots not Scotch..unless it's an egg. |
wrgmr1 | 12 Mar 2016 10:33 a.m. PST |
I'm actually Scotch-Irish. My cousin traced our family tree back to 1536 in Scotland. The name was Muir. However being on the wrong side of the Jacobite Rebellion my ancestors emigrated to Northern Ireland and changed our name to Moore. |
McKinstry | 12 Mar 2016 11:19 a.m. PST |
My mother's family moved from near Aberdeen to Belfast in 1756 and from Belfast to Bucks County, Pennsylvania in 1796. Growing up we were always told we were Scotch-Irish and I'm sticking with that. |
JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 12:03 p.m. PST |
I am Scottish, or Scots for short. Scotch normally refers to our national drink, i.e. whisky but it can also refer to salmon, sticky tape, a boiled egg covered in sausage meat or a cut of beef. A rumour can also be scotched but a person is never Scotch. Depending on the source I can take being called 'scotch' as a misguided statement from someone who doesn't know better, a poor attempt at humour or perhaps an insult. In many ways it doesn't bother me as there are so many more important things in this world to worry about. |
GurKhan | 12 Mar 2016 12:20 p.m. PST |
Scotch normally refers to our national drink, i.e. whisky but it can also refer to salmon, sticky tape, a boiled egg covered in sausage meat or a cut of beef. Or mist. Or broth. And don't forget Scotch Corner (a motorway service station in Yorkshire; I have no idea where the name comes from). … a person is never Scotch. As Ochoin and others have pointed out, this is a relatively recent distinction. One could argue, of course, that Scotlanders have no right to lay down the rules for those dialects of English spoken outside Scotland. As AJP Taylor said (in the 1960s, when "Scotch" may still have been in wider use): Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves Scots and their affairs Scottish. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is Scotch, just as we call les français the French and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it. :-) |
JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 12:34 p.m. PST |
'those days are past now and in the past must remain'. I remind you that I am Scottish but I speak English as my first language, I have certificates to prove my proficiency in it. I have never heard anyone from this country referring to us as Scotch unless in one of the categories I mentioned above. |
Gone Fishing | 12 Mar 2016 12:34 p.m. PST |
One thing's for certain: saying "Scotch, wha hae wi Wallace bled…" could lead to some interesting misunderstandings. |
ochoin | 12 Mar 2016 12:37 p.m. PST |
Of course, "Scots" is now the accepted term. You'd just have to be a blowhard to insist "Scotch" was never correct. I'm off to listen to the Coreys singing, "Scotchland the Brave". |
JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 12:56 p.m. PST |
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Mako11 | 12 Mar 2016 1:46 p.m. PST |
I'm confused. So, I own Scots tape, and it's mislabeled? |
JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 1:59 p.m. PST |
Scots tape, never heard of it! |
ochoin | 12 Mar 2016 3:01 p.m. PST |
Let's not forget that Scotts Porage Oats is porridge made by Scotts,not Scots in Scotland (head office Leicester…England not Scotland):
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JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 3:08 p.m. PST |
Aye, but the oats are farmed in Scotland, the flour is milled in Scotland and end product put together in a factory in Scotland. |
ochoin | 12 Mar 2016 3:22 p.m. PST |
Aye but eaten in OZ in my case. |
JimDuncanUK | 12 Mar 2016 3:37 p.m. PST |
Eaten back home here too, it's compulsory, SNP mandate number 42. |
enfant perdus | 12 Mar 2016 4:28 p.m. PST |
FYI, the term Ulster Scots is preferred over Scotch-Irish now |
Shagnasty | 12 Mar 2016 4:49 p.m. PST |
Check out Jim Webb's book on the Scotch-Irish called "A Battle From the Start." |
Bashytubits | 12 Mar 2016 11:07 p.m. PST |
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