"UK Royal Marine unit ditches the SA80 for Colt C8" Topic

"A high-profile UK Royal Marine unit has been re-equipped with the Colt Canada C8 carbine to enhance its ability to protect the Royal Navy's nuclear deterrent submarine base and nuclear weapon convoys.

The move makes the unit the first British non-special forces unit to completely drop the bullpup L85A2 (SA80) rifle used by the rest of the regular forces. Various UK special forces units already use the C8, which is designated the L119 in British service.

Details of the re-equipment effort were revealed by the commander of 43 Commando Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines, Colonel Graeme Fraser, in a briefing document to service members distributed in February…"
Full article here
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Amicalement
Armand

Is it possible that the SA80 is incapable of satisfactorily cycling lower velocity rounds (the bit about a weapon firing rounds with reduced chance of a ricochet is telling).

Important on a big metal boat, I would guess!

Other wise, having spent lots of cash making the L85 reliable, I would wonder why an inherently more compact (for any given barrel length) weapon would be ditched for a longer one.

John T

Because the L85 had too good a penetration, at close range the chances of through and through are too high for use in an enclosed space. It also has the Bren issue of being too accurate and not walking or spraying bullets, again in that kind of work a disadvantage.

This is not a new problem, the old (90s) convoy protection troops used HK weapons for the reasons stated above. The L85A2 is an assault rifle for normal infantry.

The C8 or M4 is the standard firearm of the specialoperations troops worldwide. They tend towards it to make them completely inter-operability. The RM as a whole are now 'Commando' qualified. I'ld imagine the guys guarding these sites rotate back and forth with the other SOF types.

The rifle is not o much accurate as the particualr ammunition round is pretty accurate. Going to a C8 will lose some velocity, say from 3,000 down to 2,700 fps.

The 5.56mm round is actually very good to use in urban ops as it tends to lose velocity rapidly and fragment inside walls. The same reason most polce and SWAT type forces moved away from 9mm sub machine guns and on to 5.56mm platforms.

As far as the troops still using the L85,,, well you have my condolences. national pride and three major upgardes have only made it 'just' serviceable. I played with an original L85 and the Sten Gun was a lovingly constructed piece of craftsmanship in comparison. most troops are not impressed with the upgrades. Rather like polishing a to make it more appealing.

As far as the troops still using the L85,,, well you have my condolences. national pride and three major upgardes have only made it 'just' serviceable. I played with an original L85 and the Sten Gun was a lovingly constructed piece of craftsmanship in comparison. most troops are not impressed with the upgrades. Rather like polishing a Bleeped text to make it more appealing.

Amen. The first models habit of the magazine dropping out could make it very expensive to go on watch with as you watched the mag bounce slowly and tantalisingly along the casing and then – splash – into the oggin – the XO would let you have the magazine itself for free, but each of those 25 rounds was a tenner 'donated' to the King George the V fund for Sailors!

The L85A2 is a very reliable and accurate weapon, in its current form with rails and new sights it can hold its own with any other combat rifle, in tests it was even found to have less stoppages than the M4. I have fired 1000s and 1000s of rounds through it in lots of theatres with no issues at all.
General Duties Royal Marines have been Commando qualified for about 70 years now, they are not classified as SOF.
Sorry to appear a bit of a pedantic know it all, but as a weapons instructor with 30 years infantry experience, some of these tales about the SA80 L85 annoy me, I also used the A1 version, my unit was the first to convert to it in 85/6 and it was rubbish, it's not now.

I have a hunch that John Treadway is right. Subsonic rounds intended for special ops use might not have sufficient power to cycle the bolt on an L85.

I suspect this adoption has more to do with the ability of the C8SFW (the L119A2 in UKSF service) to be accurately shot left-handed. The L119A2 is also far lighter than the L85A2, an important consideration when fast roping or climbing.

Left handed shooting is virtually impossible with the L85A2 thanks to the position of the bolt and the ejection port. Being able to shoulder and fire from cover with either shoulder is an important requirement for a CQB weapon that will be deployed in the close confines of a ship (43 Cdo also conduct opposed boardings in counter piracy operations and provide maritime counter terrorism support). The L119A2 also has ambidextrous controls to facilitate off-side shooting.

The reduced ricochet limited penetration (RRLP) capability is more about bullet design that weapon design- in this case it's likely the 62 grain Mk255 which is not a "low velocity" round (ballistically it matches the older US M855). Its possible, although unlikely, that some new specialist low velocity round that may not cycle reliably in the L85A2 has been adopted but the Mk255 is the far more likely candidate as it has been developed solely for, and widely adopted by, other naval special warfare units like the SEALs.

I was also going to make largely the same comment as "foxweasel"- I have interviewed a not inconsiderate number of Op Herrick veterans who have fired the L85A2 in anger and to a man they rated the accuracy and reliability of the L85A2. Whilst some would prefer an L119A2 or similar, one suspects this may have more to do with that weapon being perceived as "Gucci" thanks to its SF heritage rather than any inherent problems with the L85A2.

Foxweasel, after this latest upgrade it is serviceable, only just.

Nothing wrong with the ruound, jit is inherently accurate due to itss' velocity and ballistics. Matched up to a fine combat optic of three to four ppower it can do very well indeed.

Allow me to recommend the book, "Reluctant Rifle: The Last Enfield", by Steve Raw an RM armourer no less. It does an incredible job of explaining all the design flaws and shortcomings and how they were corected or in many cases ignored and turned into political theatre. It includes the upgrades up to the early 2000s. It is probably one of the few times where I actually got mad while reaing a book because i could foresee the problems developping. Might I add that more moneyy was spent on trying to upgrade the rifles than what they were worth a few time over.

I highly recommend it. from Collector Source Publishing,
link link

Sorry everyone, editing after eye surgery is hopeless,,,.

G'day, Troopwo:

"Foxweasel, after this latest upgrade it is serviceable, only just."

You can say the same for most modern assault rifles, with particular emphasis on the AR-15/M16/M4 family of weapons, mate. Our chook stranglers went to the M4 as the primary weapon (F-88 were still used, M4 preferred) in spite of its problems, because the rail configuration made it the most versatile weapon going. (And IMHO to get some SF "street cred" for badged MAJ and LTCOL). With the new F-90 you have rails and the same versatility (despite gun-runners' claims that "the torch/sight/thingamabob will only work on the M-4", etc). So they'll have the same accessory versatility with a more reliable weapon (especially the magazines- no more bent feed lips and dust-clogged check slots), so the M4's may be sent back to store.

But I still mourn the passing of the L1A1 SLR, so what would I know?

Dal.

Dal you got me giggling and teary eyed too.
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I too started with an old fashioned piece of art of an FN FAL made by Canadian Arsenals. Home of the inch pattern. As much as I miss it, at my age I do not miss the weight or the bruising from a nice day or week at the range.

After having a rail for a combat optic, these things really turned into a barbie toy for grown men to accesorize. No I really don't want the rail space for my lighter,or my garage door opener et cetera,,,.

I suspect the move towards an M4 platform for most is as they tend to operate and cooperate together so frequently that it only makes sense.

Since '87, I am on my third variation of the C7 rifle since Canada adopted it. Mag design is probably the Achilles heel of the AR system. I think that the biggst thing that made the AR so popular in the first place was the weight of the original M16A1. This has really gone out to lunch with all the rails and trash hanging off the rifles. It works well, it is very accurate for a service rifle. It is only that every time some keen idiot adds something useful to ther rifle, it starts a new fad and everyone wants to add weight to their load.

Adding weight really gets away from the original attractiveness of the design.