"Medieval Irish Pike" Topic

Question: which types of figures would best represent medieval irish pike? Just irish with spears? Shouldnt their spears be long?

My understanding is that the pike was post-Medieval (Tudor period and thereafter) and came along with muskets and pike-and-shot tactics. Medieval Irish armies were primarily kerns, gallowglasses and light horsemen.

Do you have a reference for Irish pikemen?

- Ix

I believe that the first Irish pike were under the O'Neil's rebellion in the north of Ireland when he converted some of his Irish infantry into pike and shot troops.

That would have been in the very late Tudor period.

RB is pretty much correct. There are at least 2 ranges about with suitable figs in 28mm if Tudor is what you are after.

Yeah no pike until the last Tudor War and then lots of them in Irish armies all over the island. The pikes were full length rather than spears. Not a medieval thing unless you count the Bruce's in Ireland.

Khurasan have some nice pics on their site.

Ah Ok sorry was misreading the DBA 3.0 Anglo Irish list. Thanks.

The problem is that during the Medieval Age the meaning of the word 'pike' as a weapon changed over time, the original meaning was a polearm type weapon with a small piercing point, as opposed to a 'spear' polearm which had a wider, at least partly cutting point. Both were roughly the same length, the long – 12-18 foot long version was indeed a product of the development of pike-and-shot tactics as well as the fascination of several rulers for classical authors – after all if Alexander and the Ancient Greeks used them then they MUST be a good idea.

the original meaning was a polearm type weapon with a small piercing point, as opposed to a 'spear' polearm which had a wider, at least partly cutting point.

Where did you get that from and why do you think that makes them different?

I do not see how you could have a "cutting" point on a weapon 12-18 ft long. Can you point to any examples of pikes with this wider sutting point?

Pikes in the ECW had a small "piercing point" as you describe it.

Probably no pikes among Edward Bruce's Scots in Ireland either. The pike was a weapon of the Scots commons, the mass levy of able-bodied freemen for short periods of time. The commons might sometimes have been marched into the borders or northern England on raids, but the Scots adventuring further abroad for years at a time were probably just knights, highlanders and islesmen with their typical panoply of harness and axe or spear or sword, a shield for those using a 1-handed weapon, etc.

- Ix

Ah no I'd disagree there Edward Bruce was enacting Scottish State policy and had access to all the resources of the army. It was not the usual mercenary service.

Scots did not use pike until imported just before Flodden in 1513 and training carried out by French mercenaries. Before then only long spear in the Schiltron formation.
Scots suffered at Flodden because their training was inadequate and their formations fell apart when manoeuvring in rough ground.

More the latter than the former I'd suggest. The rough ground robbed them of the impetus needed to roll over the English. Something they managed in better going on the flank.

Scots did not use pike until imported just before Flodden in 1513 and training carried out by French mercenaries. Before then only long spear in the Schiltron formation.

By strict scholarly definitions that may be an accurate statement, but this is the DBx forum, and DBx troop classifications have traditionally included Scots spearmen in schiltrons in the definition of the "pike" troop type.

- Ix

Short followup: I finally got a chance to look in the DBA 3.0 army lists; the Medieval Scots in both Ireland and France are Pk, except for a stand or two of Bw and/or Bd (Highlanders, Islesmen, etc.). Some Scots Kn also dismount as Pk, in these lists and the Scots Common list.

- Ix

Yeah, I just realized I asked this because I saw the Pk on the DBA Medieval Irish list for 1300-1515.