"Seekrieg (and other) rules" Topic

I've been using GQ 1 and 2 for thirty odd years for WW1 and WW2 naval wargaming. I like them, but they are getting a little long in the tooth, so I wondered about getting something more up to date. GQ 3 looks expensive – especially if I get the FAI supplement for WW1. The other set I have seen on a couple of sites is Seekrieg. I know nothing about them, how they play, ease of use, etc. so I'd welcome opinions on both sets.

For the record, any new set has to be fairly intuitive. While I enjoy ships, none of my (few) gaming opponents do much naval stuff, so there is a need for clear, streamlined rules.

Both good sets but if GQ 1&2 is a 4 for simplicity and ease of play, GQ3 is a 5 as is Naval Thunder and Seekreig a 9. Only Command at Sea which seems more a 10 is more complex.

Again, it is all what you want. The GQ series and Naval Thunder (also Victory at Sea but I have issues with its' accuracy) is mid level complex and whereas GQ1&2 and Victory at Sea can comfortably run 20+ per side, GQ3 and Naval Thunder might be maybe 12-15 and Seekreig or Command at Sea more like 2-3 per player.

Seekreig and Command at Sea are a good deal more complex, by their own description, "rivet counting", and if you like detail, are well established, long running and certainly lead in popularity among the rivet counting players.

It all depends upon what size game and how much time you have. Rules like Seekrieg are best with 1 or 2 ships on a side. Larger naval engagements will take a LONG time to play. If you are seeking a large naval engagement set with a 3 or 4 hour time frame I would reccomend Battlestations Battlestations by Decision Games. The last battle I did was a fictitious battle between France and Italy WW2 and involved over 40 ships and we fought it to conclusion with new players in about 3 1/2 hours.

I'd make Seekrieg a 10 for complexity and Command at Sea an 8, but once you get beyond a 5 they are likely not what you seek. Our group has settled on Naval Thunder which as downloadable PDFs are very affordable.

I also understand about have "Navigationally challenged" fellow players.

well if you think GQ3 with FAI is expensive, then avoid Seekrieg. The rules CD is just that, rules and charts with just a very few small scenarios with ship data. You'll need to buy each National CD (and for the UK you need both!) at nearly $20 USD each. That's 7 CD's plus rules CD in order to play the main 6 nations for dreadnaughts thru WW2.

I think that you will find both GQ3 with FAI or Naval THunder with its WW1 set much lower in price and of a complexity level that most players can deal with.

Isn't SEEKREIG 4th Ed. a free download. Not the latest version, but you should certainly get a taste for the game design parameters. Sorry I can't recall where I downloaded it from.
Bill

Seekreig 4th.
link

I suggest that you try "Naval Thunder". I don't think that it will cost you very much to give it a trial. If you like what you see, you can then go in whole hog & buy the various period PDFs that interest you.

I left out Battle Station, Battle Stations only because it might be too simple (say a 3) to give new players a real taste but for really big fights it is great.

Thanks for the opinions. I'm thinking of largish actions with non-naval players in a short time frame, so I'll look into the Battlestations! Battlestations! and Naval Thunder. Many thanks.

I recently picked up 'Fleet Action Imminent,' (FAI) the WWI version of GQ 3, and so far am very impressed by it.

Years ago I played Seekrieg 4, and then switched to GQ 2. I've also read though a few other rule sets, but I've only actually played Seekreig 4, GQ 2, and now FAI.

FAI is a bit more complex than GQ 2, but the added detail is well chosen. I haven't played it much yet, but it appears to hit the sweet spot for me in terms of speed vs. complexity. Of course folks have different tastes in such matters, but for me buying FAI was money well spent.

If you don't want your GQ2 can I put in a bid for it please? :-)

(There has been an extended discussion on the Yahoo GQ group recently about just how difficult it is to get hold of GQ2 these days …)

Sorry Colkitto, I'm going to hold on to mine for larger fleet engagements.

Funny that the tiny little volume is so much in demand these days. I picked mine up for $5.00 USD . . . around 1990. The folks at Old Dominion Game Works should consider making GQ 1 and 2 available as a paid downloads. Or, alternatively, make GQ 1 a free download for those who have purchased GQ 3, and GQ 2 a free download for those that purchase FAI. It might help sell a few more copies.

Post script: On further reflection, I'm not sure if ODGW has any rights to GQ 1 or 2. All the versions of GQ appear to have been put together by L. L. Gill (I believe that's Lonnie Gill) but my copy of GQ 2 notes that it was published by C in C. I think that's an outfit that sells naval miniatures, among other products. I suspect C in C owns the rights.

If C in C isn't interested in re-publishing, perhaps it could consider making GQ 1 and 2 downloadable at their store site. It might help drive some business to the site in the same fashion as WTJ posts free rules next to where it sells miniatures.

I suspect this has already been discussed to death, so I'm not sure if I'm adding anything new.

Try Grand Fleetsfrom mj12 games. It fit my needs, which is for a lighter game but still good as you request. Get it from wargames vault for $11.30 USD. I also picked up the revised scenarios book King & Keiser.

link

mj12 has a demo version of the older version iirc.

mj12games.com/grandfleets

Funny that the tiny little volume is so much in demand these days. I picked mine up for $5.00 USD USD . . . around 1990. The folks at Old Dominion Game Works should consider making GQ 1 and 2 available as a paid downloads. Or, alternatively, make GQ 1 a free download for those who have purchased GQ 3, and GQ 2 a free download for those that purchase FAI. It might help sell a few more copies.

Post script: On further reflection, I'm not sure if ODGW has any rights to GQ 1 or 2. All the versions of GQ appear to have been put together by L. L. Gill (I believe that's Lonnie Gill) but my copy of GQ 2 notes that it was published by C in C. I think that's an outfit that sells naval miniatures, among other products. I suspect C in C owns the rights.

Neither ODGW nor C-in-C hold the publishing rights, those are held by Navwar. And, yes, this issue has been thoroughly (and uselessly) thrashed to death.

@Charlie 12

Thanks for the response. A pity Navwar isn't interested in making GQ 1 and 2 available. It's tempting to comment further, but, as you pointed out, perhaps its time to stop thrashing.

GQ1 is still listed by Navwar as in stock. GQ2, however, has been out of stock for some years now. And GQ1 is only available directly from Navwar (they stopped distributing to retailers some time ago).

Father Grigori. I want to clarify something for you. It is fair to say that Fleet Action Imminent (FAI) is the GQ3 version for WWI, but it is not a supplement. It is a stand alone set of rules, and you do not need a copy of QG3 in order to use it.

I have been using FAI to run games at the HMGS conventions here in the US for about five years now. It does not take me long to teach the basics of the rules. The turns move quickly and we can almost always reach a good conclusion in 3 to 4 hours. I have run scenarios that had quite a few ships on each side. So far, everyone has gone away happy.

No one should be intimidated by the size of the book. There are many things in the book that are there for you to use but you probably will not need them. All you really need are the chapters on movement, gunnery, and damage. Everything else that you can think of is covered such as mine sweeping, submarines, airships, and you name it, but you will almost certainly never need them.

If you would forgive me the little plug you might want to take a look at the ruleset I have been working on for the past 2 years. It's pretty much on the ‘gaming' side of the slide in contrast to most naval simulations (I'd rate it a '4' on 'McKinstry's scale', although it is quite hard to rate your own game).

I've tried to write a little preview about it on my blog:
link

It is open to try for anyone that wants to take a look, feedback is of course very much appreciated. Files are up for download on the forum navalwar.boards.net/

Don't be mislead by the fact that they are free. They are pretty high production value, complete with statcards, counters, templates, OOB's etc. The reason that I give free access to them is that it's pretty hard finding playtesters for it and I'd rather have people check it out in the hope that they will enjoy themselves so much with them that they will provide feedback to improve/expand the game even further than my limited time assets allow me to do myself.

@Bwanabill

Thnks, that is very interesting. I was under the impression that FAI was a supplement. Knowing that it isn't makes it a possible set for my WW1 stuff.

@Ecclesiastes.
I'll give them a look. I'm a sucker for free stuff, and if it rates around a 4, then it might be what I'm looking for.

Thanks, gents.

FAI is a complete set of rules – you don't need to buy GQ3 as well.