"Modern UK civil war" Topic

The Queen, for one, wouldn't like it.

So, you're saying, "She would not be amused."

Myself, I wouldn't claim service in the army of the 1970s-80s as proof of anti-racist credentials…..
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as someone pretty liberal but who was in the TA and then civil service thats a bit silly – anymore than saying that someone was alive in the 70/80s was proof of anti-racist credentials. Different times. Gone now – for the better. And was he even saying that. But yes a lot of servicemen and police officers are right wing – is that very surprising? They are entitled to a pov even though i would disagree with it

I think VBCW took a potential alternative turn of history and ran with it. It's taken a very PG Wodehouse turn which is fair eneough if you like that sort of thing. W79 on the other hand, took a grittier approach though again based on another what if.

A contemporary BCW is unthinkable and presents a 5 minutes in the future option for those interested. I'm not sure if it's my cup of te, I'll stick with the 70s.

This thread has covered a lot of different aspects and has probably illustrated to the Americans just how much abuse Brits can happily throw at each other. Should be interesting if it's still running after the Wales – England match?

Myself, I wouldn't claim service in the army of the 1970s-80s as proof of anti-racist credentials…..

Classic stu ! LOL !

as someone pretty liberal but who was in the TA and then civil service thats a bit silly – anymore than saying that someone was alive in the 70/80s was proof of anti-racist credentials. Different times. Gone now – for the better. And was he even saying that. But yes a lot of servicemen and police officers are right wing – is that very surprising? They are entitled to a pov even though i would disagree with it

Totally agree … For better or worse, LEOs and many in the military see somethings that makes their POV much different than the average citizen. In some/many cases.

I have a lot of friends that are LEOs. Some of the stories they tell me … makes me glad I was not a cop ! And when I was a PI field agent, you always don't end up dealing with the "best" society has to offer … Or some of the "nicer" places in the towns your case is in.

GNREP8, a voice of sanity in a world gone mad. You are absolutely right GNREP8, I was not saying my service in the armed forces showed that I was not a racist, that like every other comment I have made on this thread, has been distorted by a few very nasty left wing witch hunters who have put word's into my mouth. In the sixth entry on this thread Ostrowski wrote "Yes, London has been lost forever. Where next?", I took this to mean that white British people were now a minority in this city, and which other cities would be likely to follow, I suggested some towns and cities that have a large minority of non white British people living in them. At no point did I suggest that this was a good thing or a bad thing, people are people and there is good and bad in all races and nationalities. Straight away the likes of wyeayeman and kavitag waded into me, kavitag being especially aggressive and abusive, but he is a frother so what can one expect. Kavitag accused me of using a fig LEAF of patriotism to cover my racism, I pointed out to him that my Patriotism was not a fig LEAF but that I had proved my patriotism by serving my country for twelve years. He said that I had no idea what it was like living in London, I pointed out that two years of my service had been in London so I did have an idea what living in London was like. I at no point said that serving in the armed forces indicated that I wasn't a racist, I was saying that twelve years service is not a fig LEAF of patriotism. Kavitag then accused me of been a sad bitter old fart, being fifty five, a war-gamer and having a flatulence problem, I can't really argue with that statement, although in token defense I do prefer cider to bitter. Thanks again to GNREP8 AND legion 4 for your support, cheers DAVE.

I'm a Vet[US ARMY] too Dave … I know to some that means little. But to those of us who served, we know the deal. We volunteered and did our duty … that is all that matters IMO.

I know to some that means little

Very, very little.

It is about who you are, not what you were. It is your choice to be bitter. Your choice to feel disenfranchised. I can understand "life is hard" & "times change" but the sympathy falls short of endorsing the concept that a modern British (or even American) civil war might shuffle the decks more to your liking.

And there are remedies for flatulence (both the physical & verbal kind).

I was in the military as well, and have absolutely no wish to see the horrors of modern warfare visited upon any place I call my home.

More over, I consider the present time to be the best time you could ever have been alive in.

Yeah, some things are jacked up, but they are less jacked up now than they've been ever before.

And you know? Tomorrow will be even better.

Who needs sympathy, not me, apart from being terribly slow at painting miniatures and being unable to stick to one project from more than a week at a time, my life is great. I have a wonderful wife, five fantastic cats and my youngest son's wife gave birth to twins on boxing day. Life is not really hard, not when you compare it to the lives of people outside Europe/North America, people who wake up in the morning not knowing if they will eat that day or not, and as for being disenfranchised, well I don't bother to vote anyway ( although I will this time if Mr Corbyn is still leading the Labour party. There won't be any civil wars in England/Britain, the majority of the people here have too good a life to throw it away in any type of struggle what so ever. If you are implying that I talk poo then that is up to you, can't say that it bothers me much. Dave.

all a bit strange – as ever maybe the internet makes things that if said in the pub would be banter come out worse. As Bangorstu and others will know I am actually centre-left in my politics, married to an immigrant. whilst i think Dave;s language in places was a bit intemperate equally no need for others to seek to speak to a US audience and say he's only represents a few bitter old types etc – if the person saying that really believes it clearly he has never sat in a police van in London or other big cities

Two points:

1. I am not really sure that enough people in the UK would care enough about who became king or queen to start anything more than a stiff exchange of views in the letter pages of the Times.

2. Having served in the military does not make one's opinion on current affairs more or less valid. The vast majority who served moved on into new lives and careers; we do not keep returning to it and trying to use it to claim some form of non-existent superiority or more profound understanding.

The lion and the unicorn
Were fighting for the crown
The lion beat the unicorn
All around the town.

Some gave them white bread,
And some gave them brown;
Some gave them plum cake
and drummed them out of town.

Carry on, then, lads.

Very, very little.

It is about who you are, not what you were. It is your choice to be bitter. Your choice to feel disenfranchised. I can understand "life is hard" & "times change" but the sympathy falls short of endorsing the concept that a modern British (or even American) civil war might shuffle the decks more to your liking.

Of course that is why I posted that. I know I'm not bitter or disenfranchised. Just that here in the US, and I think it is because the way Vietnam Vets were treated. In many cases people who find out you are a Vet, strangers on the street literally will come up to you and thank you for your service, etc. … Veterans' Day is kind of a big deal here … Now. It may not be that way in the UK or Oz, etc. …

And as I said, we volunteered and did our duty … I don't care if anyone knows that. But among other Vets in the US it's a bond. And we sometimes like to talk to others Vets. sometimes not … I belong to the Military Officers' Association here. We have monthly meetings at the USAF Base nearby. And have speakers that tell us about Vet programs, etc. … As well as speakers who were involved in like the Cuban Missile Crisis, etc. I'm interested in history. Always have been. So topics like that I am interested in, and I listen and learn.

Now since this is a war game, military modelling site, etc. When a subject I know something about and/or have some experience in. I'll comments and add my insights. As unlike some it appears, having real world training and experiences should make a Vets insights on some subjects more valid then some one who read about or saw a documentary, movie, etc. on the topic, Yes ?

And as I always say everybody is entitled to an opinion. But if my car is stalling. The opinion of my buddy who is a mechanic is probably more valid than my other buddy who is a lawyer, yes ?

Also 9/11 changed the paradigm as well. Because now the US knows it can be attacked and it's military forces are defending and going after a most heinous enemy.

and have absolutely no wish to see the horrors of modern warfare

I know No one that would want to. But having volunteered and serving over a decade in 4 Infantry Bns, etc. … I and my comrades always knew that possibility could become a reality.

When training for NBC warfare. We knew it would be especially horrible. And I was selected to be an ADMO. We had a good idea what would happen if we had to emplace and use man pack Atomic munitions. Pretty sure we would not make it home. We got that … we didn't think about it … but again … we would do are duty. And follow lawful orders from the POTUS all the way down to the officers that were of higher rank … That is all part of the deal. We took an oath. Most occupations don't make you take an oath, yes …

Having served in the military does not make one's opinion on current affairs more or less valid. The vast majority who served moved on into new lives and careers; we do not keep returning to it and trying to use it to claim some form of non-existent superiority or more profound understanding.

Of course not … but as I said, on certain military subjects Vets may have a more "Valid" opinions/insights then not. Like I have on most Infantry ops or air assault ops, etc. …

The tankers/Mech Grunts here know more about being an AFV crew than someone who was not/never served. Yes ? Again it matters little to most but on a wargame/mil modeling site like TMP. Those insight have some worth, Yes ?

all a bit strange – as ever maybe the internet makes things that if said in the pub would be banter come out worse.

Or as some would say things to another on the net that they would never say face2face. In a pub/bar or anywhere else. The advent of the internet makes some "brave" or vitriolic or abusive, etc. … As we saw a few days ago here again on TMP. They know there will be not real physical interaction, etc. … We have all probably been to a pub/bar or party etc., were some one disagrees with another and a fight breaks. Which is something many would want to avoid, but it happens. Like after a few drinks, some get "beer" muscles and say or do things they would do otherwise. The same goes for the internet or phone. It's easy to hide behind the "net"/air waves, etc. … Which now that I think about it probably has nothing to do with a UK CWII …

Legion 4,

Veterans have a more valid viewpoint on what they experienced and knew; that may have little relevance once a few years have elapsed since they served.

What many people find somewhat nauseating is when veterans try to use their experience to claim deeper or more meaningful insights into issues or topics for which their service did not equip them, such as former low ranking officers second guessing those making current strategic decisions. In particular, this is the case for those who served only in peacetime (especially in non frontline combat roles) yet claim to have knowledge of the realities of combat.

Many have served their country; only a tiny minority bang on and on about it, using it to attempt to justify whatever opinions they put forward.

If you feel this describes you, so be it; perhaps it is meant to.

No my point was when talking about wargaming and such on some topics we may have some insights … I don't attempt to justify my opinions only based on military experience. I only mention it to make my comments have more validity on some things I have been trained to do or experienced. Regardless, we are all entitled to have an opinion.

such as former low ranking officers second guessing those making current strategic decisions.

If we are discussing a topic like this. Everybody can state an opinion. No matter what their past or current background is. If not there is no discussion on the topic.

If you feel this describes you, so be it; perhaps it is meant to.

No if you feel it describes me … so be it … again, everybody is entitled to an opinion. I get the feeling you do. So again you are entitled to an opinion. Here on TMP, if you feel this is true … you can hit the stifle button. I won't be offended. If that is your opinion of me … again … so be it …

Anyway, returning to the topic, I cannot think of any cause or situation which would result in the British people, or any significant segment thereof, rising up against the state in armed conflict.

The best(?) that Britain can manage is 30 pathetic neo-Nazis being protected from 500 or so "Antifa" by the police in Liverpool.

Legion 4,

I was particularly intrigued by this comment from you:

"If you are not afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters. In an efficient and effective manner, in large numbers. To stu … that makes you a racist. LOL !!!!!"

Ignoring the truly dreadful grammar, I wonder what resulted in you making that statement; it does not reflect anything stated by anyone else, so why make it? Are you implying that you were not afraid to do so? If so, how do you know? After all, you never saw combat so you could not know that you would not be "afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters. In an efficient and effective manner, in large numbers."

That is an example of what I meant when I stated: "In particular, this is the case for those who served only in peacetime (especially in non frontline combat roles) yet claim to have knowledge of the realities of combat."

That was obviously meant in gest … note the LOL !! As stu and I disagree often. Over many things. And sorry my grammar is not up to your standards. Wait … no I'm not … didn't know there was a grammar quiz today.

Yes, I served '79-'90, was an Infantry officer in Panama and Korea, etc.,… I don't know what you mean by non-frontline combat role ? We were in the Cold War, not a hot war. Never said otherwise. I did have 2 tours with a Mech Bn on the DMZ in the ROK, 3 deployments to the CZ in Panama. Sometimes it got a little dicey. But not combat …

And never claimed to know the realities of combat. I again, was stating an opinion in most cases. About whatever you think I was trying to say. However, in that case it was probably what I had learned or was taught in all the training, etc. …

And besides … sounds like sound tactic that may be used in combat ? As both a Rifle PL and Mech Co Cdr, we trained and were taught to fight in combat. So again, stating something I was trained to do. Is something that could be of some interest on a war game site ?

Maybe you just don't like my attitude. And I never state anything about me or anything else for that matter which is untrue. Again, seems you have a problem with me and my attitude, etc. … stifle me. Looks like you are trying to start an argument.
Why should I care what an nameless faceless typist on the other end of the net says or thinks about me ? IF You have a problem with me stifle me or report me to the Ed. … just hit the [!]. I have not said anything against the TMP rules. Just your "rules" on how you think I should act, talk, etc. … I don't have a problem, you do with me … it appears … I'm particularly intrigued by why you care what I say … Who are you to judge ?

Legion 4,

You seem to be having a bit of a problem understanding my posts.

My previous comment was about this element of your statement:

"If you are not afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters. In an efficient and effective manner, in large numbers."

As an approach to exploring the relevance of military experience to developing a useful understanding of events and situations beyond one's experience, I was wondering how someone who never saw combat could know that he was not afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters in an efficient manner, in large numbers.

What many people find somewhat nauseating is when veterans try to use their experience to claim deeper or more meaningful insights into issues or topics for which their service did not equip them, such as former low ranking officers second guessing those making current strategic decisions.
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low ranking plebs moaning about the great and the good – I think soldiers have done that since Severus hefted a pila and said "I dont think that Crassus knows his &^$ from his elbow". Lower ranks not allowed to have insights on topics proper to those with lots of scrambled egg on their hats – whatever next.
Btw nauseating – really?

Of course, and I agree. But to some, Vets can't have strong opinions based on their training and experience. Or anything else … And as I said, this if a wargame/military mini site. I'd think some Veterans' insights might be worthwhile because of their training and experiences. That would seem only logical.

"If you are not afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters. In an efficient and effective manner, in large numbers."

As an approach to exploring the relevance of military experience to developing a useful understanding of events and situations beyond one's experience, I was wondering how someone who never saw combat could know that he was not afraid to kill the enemy and their supporters in an efficient manner, in large numbers.

As far as this "situation". It appears I'd have been better to use the word "someone" or "one" or "anyone" is not afraid etc., etc., … The "you" in that statement was generic, overall, broad in scope. No Where did I say "I" or "Me". And it was said in jest, based on my ongoing interaction with stu. Of course regardless the individual who had a problem with it was trolling, and attempting to mock and berate, etc,…. Not have a friendly adult conversation.

And that statement was something like I'm sure I heard/was taught in the plethora of military schools I attended. During my time on Active Duty. It could have been in IOBC, IOAC, Combined Arm Sx3, all the various Officers' Professional Development classes, etc., etc. … So according to this individual, you can only talk about your military training and experiences if you were in combat ?

We learned at the Infantry School, the mission of the Infantry is "to kill, capture and destroy enemy personnel and equipment". But no where were we told you can't repeat this unless you saw combat. The same goes for the original comment that this individual thought would be a good vehicle he would use to mock, belittle, denigrate, etc., me. I can't remember where I heard or read that and by which instructor(s). But as I said, to me, it sounds like a good tactic to use in combat.

Many of us here, Vet or not, are students of history, are interested in wargaming, etc. … So IMO this is a good place to discuss history and military topics. And I'd think that actual Vet experiences, would again be of some relevance to many topics on a site about military history and wargaming.

But again, he was trying to berate, denigrate, mock, insult, me … not have a meaningful discussion. I know he is DH'd. But I will show him as much common respect as he has shown me.

My attitude toward Legion is based on his claiming that being a veteran makes his views that killing civilians and blowing up hospitals is OK, valid.

Here we go again … No I didn't say that. Regardless, CD will occur and is sometimes unavoidable. And once a place like a school, hospital, mosque, etc. is used by the enemy it losses it's protected status. Again, as we all know war is a very bad situation where very bad things happen.

It does not make it valid or OK … it's just another very unfortunate result of enemy combatants/insurgents using deploying/occupying locations like that. It's classic guerilla warfare dogma. That Che' and others espoused …

And again if the US/West was not concerned about CD, I'll say it again. Certain places on the planet would look like the dark side of the Moon. But come on stu, we've covered this ground many, many times before. And it is clear we should agree to disagree. And you can call me a murdering butcher, etc. … Who espouses that, as tragic as it is, CD can and will happen.

Also saw an interesting interview with former USAF 4 Star General Haden. Who both headed the CIA and later the NSA. He said similar to what I have been saying about CD. But his sources [CIA, NSA, etc.] clearly showed that yes, CD happened but not to the level that many say.

Now I know many especially some Euros think someone like him and his background is = to Darth Vader, Satan, etc. … However, I'm going to take his word over yours or most any one else here on TMP.

It's another case of my concept that in many cases, Vets, especially like him. Have a better understanding of the military, battles, combat, etc.,…

We were trained and some would say "indoctrinated" to fight and to got to combat. In all manners of war fighting skills, techniques, fieldcraft, etc., etc. … In many cases by our NCOs and Officers that were Veterans of the Vietnam War. We learned much from those that were battle tested and proven.

We trained, and trained and trained in the 4 Infantry Bns I served and commanded in. As a Commander I trained my soldiers with that same mind set as did the other leaders. It was a given in places, like in the ROK, Central America, etc. that we were probably going into conflict sooner or later. We stared back at the Norks at Panmunjom, the Russian spy trawlers in the CZ in Panama, etc., … We were prepared to go to war. So if my attitude reflects that and some don't like it … so be it. That is the way it is and that is the way I feel.

Plus again as stated,

The vast majority who served moved on into new lives and careers; we do not keep returning to it and trying to use it to claim some form of non-existent superiority or more profound understanding.

What I say here again, is in the context of this being a wargaming site. Where history and current conflicts, etc., are discussed. Everybody has moved on, but on this site we are talking about military topics, etc. … And whether some believe it or not. Again on some topics some Vets have insights based on our training an experiences while on active duty. As far as "non-existent superiority", some may believe or feel that way. However, again, I'm pretty sure many Vets here know more than non-Vets about some aspects and dynamics of the military, etc., than others. Regardless of seeing combat or not.

Again, I firmly believe based on some past experiences here. That some individuals, some that have been banned from this site previously. Have a "hard-on" for me because of my politics, attitude, bravado (?), etc. on certain military and historical topics, etc.,… And as most will agree to disagree. Some think it is OK to mock, denigrate, berate, etc., me [and others] and my views. That is not the way to have a useful discussion on a website like this. I can see why some of these "people" were banned. "Don't play well with others.", comes to mind. I don't have a problem, those that think like that do.

Why don't you guys make out already?

Yeah, get a room.

@goonfighter, yeh that's pretty horrible but it's not a rhyme I was ever taught, or remember ever hearing.
I assume for you it's taught as a reason to dislike the English, but from an English point of view it's gone and forgotten.
Since a kid I've spent most of my holiday life in Wales. Been ignored, always at the back of the queue,sold stale bread etc
I'm from Cheshire with Welsh/Irish roots.My partner has travelled the world but until I took her to Wales she had never encountered everyday hatred.

That's not entirely true, she lived in South Africa for a bit during Apartheid.

26 years, out of date dude.

"From an English point of view it's gone and forgotten"

Those mad Commies at the Spectator would beg to differ Crumple.

link

The author wrote an excellent and well regarded trilogy on the history of the British Empire.

I don't think I've ever encountered hatred for being English in Wales, and I've lived and worked there for twenty years now.

Welsh national identity is based on being (quietly) proud to be Welsh, not hating the English. I'm very interested in Welsh history and language. As genetic testing has revealed the British peoples are largely a analogous group anyway, differences are cultural and historical rather than racial.

Back on topic I'm not sure a modern UK civil war is plausible. Also it lacks the charm of VBCW or the atmosphere of Winter of 79. I'd be tempted to keep it light too.

I'd be a lot happier if there weren't so many people on here thirsting for social breakdown based on foreign or religious minorities seizing control. I'm not pretending we haven't got problems or that everything is tickety boo, but I think eventually social assimilation will occur.

Why don't you guys make out already?

You mean Make Up …"make out" means something different completely …

Yeah, get a room.

Well maybe for a wargame or two. But We are on opposite sides of the pond.

Stu & I have that kind of association like … He's the Joker to my Batman. My Spiderman to his Green Goblin, etc. … I think he just likes to argue with me !

I wasn't taught to hate the English, far from it, the matter of Welsh Identity barely featured. I'd be lying if I said that Ray Gravell's pre match rallying cry doesn't strike a chord but that's rugby not ethnicity and politics.

Given how vital tourism is to some very small Welsh communities, I'd be surprised if you met the blatant hostility you mention. I've met grumpy bar staff and disinterested shop assistants everywhere in the UK and beyond.

As for stale bread, you really need to leave the Donald Duck outfit at home.

Lived in Wales 28 years…

Never once encountered any hatred at all – not even during the bombing campaign.

So, frankly, I call .

Yeah, at some point, you have to think, "Maybe it's *not* the English. Maybe it's *me* they hate."

Without suggesting this is the case here, there is a class of tourist which deserves everything coming to them.

i.e. the whining patronising little scrotes who loudly complain about the sight of Welsh signage everywhere, and who are convinced Welsh is a conspiracy to personally ruin their holiday through paranoia…

Oh, and the Cheshire set who infest Abersoch….

Well, at least one person was preparing for war in the UK.

His collection is impressive, even by us American standards!

link

You guys must pay your crane operators 10x more than they make here in the USA, for him to afford all dem guns and ammo, especially at black market prices. …200,000 rounds of ammo, whee!

Ah Suffolk… my home county…

Lot of WW2 stuff could have been got cheap years ago as there was a lot lying around.

American servicemen might also provide a means of acquiring some items I'd have thought.

But where the blaze she got an SA80 from I've no idea.

Today, US military weapons are all inventoried by serial number etc., at Company level. And very well monitored, etc. …
Of course during WWII, it was not so well "organized". And I'm sure in a combat situation you could pick up or "lose" your/a weapon. And few would question it. And I've read stories of some Major End Items, like tanks, trucks, etc., just being left in place. At war's end … So who knows ?

Must be a deactivated one, as Legion says you can't just sneak one off a base.

I bet none of them have been used, that looks like an obsessive collector rather than a survivalist, although it doesn't explain all the ammunition.

Various reports have listed the firearms found, and while there were plenty of WWII and earlier guns, the list includes fully automatic guns from a Sten to modern combat arms. Also includes a "pile" of semi-auto pistols. Also a functioning LAW.

I don't understand how he had contacts to get that accumulation, or the funds to buy black market autos. That part of the investigation is never discussed and will probably take years.

Plus, any one who shoots competitively, reloads, or is a serious collector would understand the time, effort, money and space required to have 200,000 rounds of ammo.

I don't understand how he had contacts to get that accumulation, or the funds to buy black market autos.

Good point. Raises the question in my mind whether he was a professional gun-runner, and if so, to whom? I don't guess he was planning to pop his rocks at 49 from cancer, with all that inventory still on hand.

They're the wrong sort of guns for the UK 'market'. UK criminals prefer handguns or shotguns. If he was in the export market he'd have been better off working it overseas, exporting stuff overseas would be very difficult and risky.

Gun Runners and the like usually have pretty effective methods and contacts, etc. … And in some cases once a country like the US sells or gives some weapons, etc., to less than 1st World Countries, etc., … After that those weapons, munitions, etc., could end up in the "wrong" hands. Sold, stolen or abandoned. Like some tanks, etc., were when the Iraqis dropped and abandoned their US weapons and ran.

They're the wrong sort of guns for the UK 'market'.

They were the wrong sort of guns for the UK criminal market, but some of them looked like excellent weapons for a squad of terrorists. I have several times expressed puzzlement where terrs on the continent could be getting current military-grade assault rifles in a supposedly disarmed EU. But I'm a jumpy, nervous guy with shifty eyes.

Bear in mind the UK is basically an island (and a bit of another island). We don't have open land borders like most of the rest of Europe, except for the one between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

The only place that regularly saw terrorists armed with military equipment in recent times is Northern Ireland. They tended not to use them in the rest of the UK, bombs were their usual instrument of terror. Northern Ireland does have different gun laws to the rest of the UK.

The EU has large often poorly policed borders and is surrounded by countries with fairly relaxed gun laws, like Switzerland for example.

Most UK citizens wouldn't have the first idea how to fire or maintain anything much complicated than a shotgun or an air rifle.

Zippy.

For a start the EU is not disarmed… semi-automatic weapons are legal in a lot of places.

Secondly the big problem is Eastern Europe. The Balkans Wars mean there are a lot of surplus wepaons about the place.

There are places on the planet you can't swing a dead jihadi/terrorist, etc., without hitting former USSR/Warsaw Pact weapons, weapons systems, equipment, etc., …

I had IN MY HANDS 40 PPSH41s in working condition in Qalat Afghanistan, just pulled them out of an open conex in the village at the base of the old hill fort we garrisoned there in 04-05. I rebuilt 5 of them and guess what, they worked fine. Got plenty of 76.2-25mm ammo from the Romanians at Kandahar and the drums worked fine too. This stuff is EVERYWHERE. You just have to be in the right place. We crushed about 50 at camp McGovern in Bosnia in 02. I almost cried…. I always wanted one of those sweet things……

I even remember seeing a video on the news where one of the Iraqi milita (?) was carrying an MP-40 !?!
Too bad you had to crush those PPSHs, they should have gone to museums or private collectors in the US or Europe.