Slojax | 19 Feb 2016 2:08 p.m. PST |
So…has anybody out there found a set of torpedo rules that you find completely (ok, mostly) satisfying? |
Zippee | 19 Feb 2016 4:04 p.m. PST |
Nope, not really. We have found a streamlined heavily house ruled GQIII gives us reasonable results but it's certainly not as written. |
The G Dog | 19 Feb 2016 4:13 p.m. PST |
I still like the torpedo rules from General Quarters I. |
Extra Crispy | 19 Feb 2016 5:13 p.m. PST |
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gamershs | 19 Feb 2016 5:20 p.m. PST |
Played many Naval games and none of the torpedo rules feel quite right. I suspect it has to do with the size of the ships and the scale at which the game is being played at. When a destroyer is 200 feet long (1/1200= 2" 1/2400=1") and 1000 yards equals 2" this makes the destroyer 2.5 to 5 times bigger then it is. With gunnery this doesn't matter (shell hits or it doesn't) but with a torpedo running for 20 minutes then traveling through the area where the ship is located it can make a difference. Last game I played in the Japanese got torpedoed by the American fleet in a night battle in Iron Bottom Sound (SEEKRIEG 5 RULES). I was the Japanese!!!!This was after I did a 90 degree turn away from the American destroyers with my one light cruiser and 2 destroyers and didn't fire torpedoes as I thought it would be a waste against two destroyers. Oh Well! |
Bozkashi Jones | 19 Feb 2016 5:38 p.m. PST |
I use a much modified set of Paul Hague's rules on occasion which use templates in the shape of a cone some 20" long by 4" wide. Each move (5 mins) torpedoes are assumed to be in successive quarters along this length; if this coincides with a ship in that zone then dice are thrown with hits depending on size and orientation. They're not perfect but they give a decent 'feel'. the problem is the templates are laid on the table so are easily avoided. In a way this is fine, as forcing the enemy line to turn away can be part of the plan (e.g. Java Sea 1942) but clever turns by the target can mitigate without achieving this effect, which isn't as realistic. So – the short answer is, 'no'. Maybe one day! Nick |
Charlie 12 | 19 Feb 2016 5:59 p.m. PST |
The streamlined system introduced in FAI and then adopted as standard in GQ3.3 is about the best I've found of the way too many naval rules I've played. That said, there really isn't any really good one out there. And I'm beginning to think there will never be one. |
Slojax | 19 Feb 2016 6:30 p.m. PST |
It's encouraging to know that I'm not alone…most recently we've been using a lash-up made of bits from CaS, GQ and Paul Hague with house additions splashed all over it |
Allen57 | 19 Feb 2016 7:57 p.m. PST |
No. Given the time a torpedo must travel I just don't see torpedo rules in miniatures games ever working very well. |
Yellow Admiral | 19 Feb 2016 8:44 p.m. PST |
I'm fairly happy with my gutted and streamlined version of the GQ2 torpedo rules, but that's WWI. WWII torpedoes are a bit tougher. - Ix |
McKinstry | 19 Feb 2016 10:38 p.m. PST |
I use a General Quarters amalgam of 1-2 plus 3 plus home cooking. It kind of works. |
Trierarch | 20 Feb 2016 2:23 p.m. PST |
I'm fairly happy with the GQ torpedo rules GQ3 being my preferred version |
Father Grigori | 20 Feb 2016 3:41 p.m. PST |
How do GQ3 rules work? I've got GQ1 and 2. I' quite happy with them on the whole, so much that I really don't relish spending on GQ3 just to get a set of torpedo rules. |
codiver | 23 Feb 2016 6:03 a.m. PST |
Torpedoes – the bane of naval war gaming (with things like night visibility, fratricide and radar a close second…). It is odd to me that for gunnery, a mechanic that has you simply identify the target, roll some dice with some modifiers, and thus miss, or hit and possibly damage the target is OK. As it might be put, the player remains in the role of the ship captain (or even division leader), with all of the technical aspects of firing the guns on target left to the gunnery officer(s) – i.e. the dice rolls. But for torpedoes, somehow the players have to become the torpedo officer(s) and aim their torpedoes across the table top at model ships that, as was pointed out above, are not the same scale as the table. Otherwise the rules aren't any good… I was like many, and didn't appreciate the elegance of the GQ1/2 torpedo rules. Now that I play GQ3, I have torpedo range sticks that show the band the torpedoes are in for a particular turn after firing. Simply put, the firer notes the target and where the torpedoes are fired from. In the "Torpedo Phase" of the turn, we quickly use the stick to see if there is the possibility of a hit, and then roll dice, with a couple of modifiers, to see if there is a hit (or hits). And no, not all of the players like the rule – not having enough control of their torpedo firing… |
yarkshire gamer | 07 Mar 2016 11:33 a.m. PST |
We us a system which sounds like codiver above. Player plots side of ship its launching from and speed of torps (usually fast, med, slow) in turn prior to launch. Next turn in launch phase it puts a mdf template out (all specific size and width, Tony at ERM is a diamond for sorting that) anywhere in its launch arch. Torpedo runs for x turns based on Type and speed setting. Anything goes over a track has a chance to be hit, usual modifiers, roll to hit, location and then damage. Old school standard stuff. Works for us. Cheers Ken yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk |
fullmetal2015 | 07 Mar 2016 12:34 p.m. PST |
I would say Seekrieg5 is the best I have seen, they have a faster playing rules and then a more indepth process for figuring torp runs. fullmetal |
Murvihill | 14 Mar 2016 10:04 a.m. PST |
We play a much simplified game and basically treat torpedoes as guns but they are rolled after all gunfire has been resolved and the ship/plane and its torpedo system has to survive the gunfire in order to fire. |
Yellow Admiral | 15 Mar 2016 1:49 p.m. PST |
I also keep settling on something basically like what yarkshire gamer describes, but I leave out the tracks – just measure whether the named target is still within the allowed launching arc and within range from the marked launch point, and roll the dice. It is odd to me that for gunnery, a mechanic that has you simply identify the target, roll some dice with some modifiers, and thus miss, or hit and possibly damage the target is OK. As it might be put, the player remains in the role of the ship captain (or even division leader), with all of the technical aspects of firing the guns on target left to the gunnery officer(s) – i.e. the dice rolls.But for torpedoes, somehow the players have to become the torpedo officer(s) […] Otherwise the rules aren't any good… This pretty much sums up my feeling about torpedo rules, too. I find many torpedo rules to be too fiddly, cumbersome and exacting, and often in stark contrast to the elegant simplicity of the gunnery systems in the very same rulebook. On the other had there is an interesting conundrum that resolving torpedoes with the same mechanics as guns makes them "feel" like short-ranged guns. Having one or two special steps or characteristics that are unique to torpedoes helps the mind accept them as a different style of weapon system. - Ix |
Blutarski | 15 Mar 2016 7:45 p.m. PST |
The biggest problem with naval wargaming torpedo rules is that a torpedo FC function is rarely provided. In most rules the launching player has no option but to make a WAG in terms of aiming his spread and the error usually grows exponentially with the distance of the target. In 1:1 first division live historical tournament play, torpedo fire was assisted by torpedo FC computers. Various target values (estimated speed, inclination relative to line of sight, range) and torpedo values (speed setting, max running distance) were entered and the systems would spit out a trigonometrically generated firing angle that would be valid for interception if (a) the speed and inclination estimated were accurate and (b) the target maintained a steady course. B |
Tango01 | 24 Apr 2021 1:05 p.m. PST |
Any WW2 German rule must take this into account… link
Armand
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codiver | 25 Apr 2021 7:00 a.m. PST |
Many rules address the problems with American torpedoes up to mid-'43. GQ3.3 does also address problems with German torpedoes through 1940. |
Nine pound round | 26 Apr 2021 2:17 p.m. PST |
Just curious, Blutarski- is that FC computer program available anywhere? |
Blutarski | 26 Apr 2021 7:51 p.m. PST |
Hi 9pr, When I say that it is a torpedo FC "program", I do not mean to suggest that it is a piece of software. It is actually simply a chart, which is employed as follows - It is assumed that torpedo attack and its intended target are issued in the turn prior to the actual launch of the torpedo(es) At the beginning of the turn in which the torpedoes are to actually be launched, the firing party notes the LINE OF SIGHT from his firing ship to the intended target (which can be an individual ship, or perhaps the center of a formation of ships. Estimate angle between the LINE OF SIGHT and the heading of the target ship, which I refer to as the ANGLE OF INCLINATION. Estimate the ratio between target ship speed and the speed of the torpedo. I refer to it as the SPEED RATIO (example: target speed = 15 kts; torpedo speed = 30 kts; speed ratio = 0.50). Cross reference the TARGET INCLINATION angle (which runs across the top of the chart with the SPEED RATIO (which runs down the left-hand side of the chart) to determine the torpedo LEAD ANGLE, which is measured from the original target LINE OF SIGHT. I put a sticky note alongside the ship firing the torpedoes, with a dot amidships; a line Drawn from the dot toward the target ship references the LINE OF SIGHT. It is the player's obligation to judge running distance to the target intercept point versus torpedo running range for the selected speed setting. The chart does not provide this information. My house rule is that placing and marking the sticky note on the table MAY or MAY NOT signify an actual torpedo launch. If you are interested, send me an email at - "byronangel [ at ] verizon [ dot ] net" - and I will sent you a copy of the chart and some other related stuff. I will also be happy to provide info on how I handle torpedo spreads, running reliability, etc. Please keep in mind that this is et up for WW1 gaming (based upon the data provided in the RN Torpedo Manual for 1916). B |
ScottWashburn | 25 Jun 2021 8:22 a.m. PST |
I would think that a big problem would be that if you put the torpedoes on the table and move them (Rather than just make the hit or miss a die roll) then the target player is going to know about it and maneuver to avoid. During most night actions the target would have no way of knowing torpedoes were coming until they hit. |
NCC1717 | 25 Jun 2021 3:29 p.m. PST |
The code for a firing solution might look something like this example (BASIC, macro language for LibreOffice): Sub TorpSolution(TStargetangle as single, TStargetspeed as integer, TStorpedospeed as integer, TSrange as single) Dim TStheta as single TSdeflection = (TStargetspeed / TStorpedospeed) * sin(radperdeg * TStargetangle) / radperdeg TStheta = 180 – (TStargetangle + TSdeflection) TSrundistance = TSrange * sin(radperdeg * TStargetangle) / sin(radperdeg * TStheta) TSruntime = 60 * TSrundistance / TStorpedospeed End Sub' TorpSolution It should be possible for someone with modern skills to do this as a phone app. |
NCC1717 | 25 Jun 2021 4:19 p.m. PST |
Link to the torpedo section of NAVPERS 16116, 1944: link |