Mark68 | 18 Feb 2016 12:21 p.m. PST |
Being new to wargaming I'm probably going to just dump all terrain I can get my hands on with very little thought. Any advice for building interesting ww2 (land battle) terrain? Things like, where to place rivers, common mistakes to watch out for etc? |
MajorB | 18 Feb 2016 12:29 p.m. PST |
Any advice for building interesting ww2 (land battle) terrain? Go look at a suitable location on Google Maps then model what you see.
Things like, where to place rivers, Rivers always run through the lowest points in any landscape. common mistakes to watch out for etc? Making fields in the Normandy bocage too big. They were typically no more than 100 yds across. |
Mark68 | 18 Feb 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
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Pattus Magnus | 18 Feb 2016 2:44 p.m. PST |
"Making fields in the Normandy bocage too big. They were typically no more than 100 yds across." A related mistake is assuming that the entire Normandy area is thick bocage – MajorB's comment is accurate for the western part of Normandy (where US forces operated), but less so for the eastern part (where the British and Canadian forces operated). While there were still lots of hedges in the eastern area, they were more sparse and much less likely to be the 'bocage' type with a large earthen berm in the middle. The fields in eastern Normandy are also larger on average – take a look at WW2 period photos of the areas around Caen and you'll see what I mean, it is much more open than the 'hedgerow hell" around Carentan. The advice to use google maps is a great way to start. A lot of the WW2 main roads and streets are the same now and the major topography such as the hills and rivers hasn't changed. |
MajorB | 18 Feb 2016 2:55 p.m. PST |
but less so for the eastern part (where the British and Canadian forces operated). Agreed. That is why I said "the Normandy bocage". The bocage was only in the western part of Normandy. |
Jamesonsafari | 18 Feb 2016 3:01 p.m. PST |
Most games suffer from not enough terrain. Low walls and hedges around back gardens of houses. Lots of fences and hedges and walls around fields. Out buildings. |
Saber6 | 18 Feb 2016 4:11 p.m. PST |
Look at aerial photos. Most of the US Army Histories (Green Books) have several |
Mr Pumblechook | 18 Feb 2016 4:15 p.m. PST |
One thing is to avoid single choke-points. If you have a capture the objective scenario, make sure one side can't just defend or block the single bridge over the impassable river. It can be worth having a variety of terrain density: one flank open, the other closed terrain with lots of cover. |
BattleCaptain | 18 Feb 2016 5:30 p.m. PST |
In most cases, don't get too fussed about making hills. Much of Europe is quite flat, and even the hilly bits are often low and broad, so that at the skirmish level, slopes are usually gentle, and ridges and crests may be difficult to distinguish, or even occur outside the map area. |
Mark68 | 18 Feb 2016 11:03 p.m. PST |
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Mark68 | 18 Feb 2016 11:32 p.m. PST |
Does anyone know for a random terrain placement generator, free to download? |
Martin Rapier | 19 Feb 2016 12:19 a.m. PST |
I find simply throwing bits of felt at the table is quite random. Real terrain isn't random of course. Rivers don't flow over hills, roads and tracks follow the path of least resistance, villages are often tucked into folds in the ground etc. Depending on the level of game though, you probably need a lot of terrain to provide routes for covered movement. Why not buy some scenario books to get a feel for what works? The Skirmish Campaigns and Too Fat Lardies scenario books are very good for tactical games. |
Mark68 | 19 Feb 2016 12:23 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the advice Martin |
Mark68 | 19 Feb 2016 12:25 a.m. PST |
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GReg BRad | 19 Feb 2016 2:54 a.m. PST |
Pattus a field 100 yards across if you are going to keep to scale equates to 1.27 meters for 20mm games that is still huge !! |
MajorB | 19 Feb 2016 4:36 a.m. PST |
Pattus a field 100 yards across if you are going to keep to scale equates to 1.27 meters for 20mm games that is still huge !! Only if the ground scale matches the figure scale. I am not aware of any WW2 rules where that is the case. |
Pattus Magnus | 19 Feb 2016 8:18 a.m. PST |
As MajorB points out, the ground scale almost never matches the figure scale. Maybe it does for some of the squad-level skirmish games, though (I haven't played those). From some of the OP's other threads I gather that he's hooked on I Ain't Been Shot Mum. I don't have my copy handy, but my recollection is that the ground scale for that game is very close to 1/300 – if so, the 100 yard field scales to 30cm tabletop distance. Still a fairly big open area in IABSM, especially if there's a good chance the enemy has a MG dug in on the other side! |
Pattus Magnus | 19 Feb 2016 8:24 a.m. PST |
Battle Captain's point above is a good one about basically flat terrain – I visited France for the first time last summer and I was struck by how flat it is (this from someone who has travelled all over the Canadian prairies…). If vertical topography in WW2 is something the OP wants, though, lots of the battles in Italy were fought in much more hilly terrain. |
Vigilant | 19 Feb 2016 8:41 a.m. PST |
I'd recommend looking at as many pictures from the period that you can – books or on-line. Also travel guides or the big table top books that regularly end up in cheap bookshops or discount shelves can give you ideas. Or just go out into your local countryside and take some pictures, especially if you can get to some old battlefields. Even battles from different periods and countries will give you ideas as to how roads and pathways mix with rivers – humans pretty much use terrain the same wherever they are. |
Cappahayden | 19 Feb 2016 10:01 a.m. PST |
Hi there, Here is a large collection of aerial recon photos from the SWW, housed at Laurier University in Waterloo, ON. It is from First Canadian Army. link They are black-and-whites, organized by country, department (in France), and then by flight. They give an excellent sense of topography, foliage, crop patterns, town and crossroads layouts, and so forth. Hope it's helpful. |
Mark68 | 19 Feb 2016 10:55 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the link Cappahayden |
uglyfatbloke | 23 Feb 2016 8:22 a.m. PST |
Some scenarios can let you match the groundscale to the figure scale even in 28mm. We've done it a fair bit with actions set in the Arnhem end of Market Garden; there's pics and some info about one of them on the Amsterdam Sixshooters club website. Stick on lots and lots of scenery to block LofS and do away with ranges save for pistols/PIATS/panzerfausts…and maybe SMGs if you've got LoS greater than about 4 foot. |
RetroBoom | 24 Feb 2016 11:12 a.m. PST |
I find these to be great help: link |
Mark68 | 24 Feb 2016 2:57 p.m. PST |
@ Cheesesailor77 Very handy! Thanks |
fozman | 25 Feb 2016 7:03 a.m. PST |
From my regular travels to Normandy, you need to remember that many of the field boundaries (whether "true" Bocage or just bl@@dy big hedges) were taken out in the years following the war, so looking at Google or equivalent modern day views can be less "accurate" compared to how it was in WW2 I also find geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil a useful site (there are Dutch & Belgium equivalents). It's the French equivalent of the Ordnance Survey but it allows you to merge aerial images with detailed maps so that you can see the contour lines (which don't always match with those on the Allied wartime maps). You can also print quite detailed maps out on this site Again, from my researches, a "standard Bocage field" ('though linking "standard" and "bocage field" is a bit of a stretch as they were anything BUT uniform!!) can just about get 3 Shermans nose to tail in it! Then, of course, there's the point that "Hills" (as in Hill 112 or Hill 113 near Caen weren't nice straightforward pointy hills, but large "lumps" of terrain that covered large areas & sometimes, the "hill" fought over (such as "Ring Contour 100" which saw fierce fighting between 1st Bn Tyneside Scottish & 9th SS in the dying stages of Operation EPSOM) is hardly noticeable from some directions And finally (as I *suppose* that I'd better get back to work), don't forget if you're looking for locations based on Grid References given in War Diaries, they're different to those on current maps. |
Mark68 | 25 Feb 2016 10:28 p.m. PST |
I never realised those fields were so small Thanks for the advice fozman |
fozman | 29 Feb 2016 5:45 a.m. PST |
No problem – glad to help Also, forgot to add a link in my post to the "Coordinates translator" which allows you to convert wartime Grid References to their location on Google :-) link |
Mark68 | 01 Mar 2016 12:40 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the link fozman Truth be told though, I'm not sure I know how to use that. I did take a look but not sure |
TacticalPainter01 | 04 Mar 2016 2:36 a.m. PST |
Avoid getting bogged down in creating the map, focus on creating the situation. Our game is always an abstraction and sometimes the table has to reflect this. If you keep the tactical situation top of mind and construct terrain that forces both sides to consider the solutions to the tactical issues, then in my opinion, you've done a fine job. |
Mark68 | 04 Mar 2016 12:37 p.m. PST |
@ TacticalPainter01 Thanks for the tip |
mgk4167 | 04 Mar 2016 6:38 p.m. PST |
Not sure if its a tip or a warning, but here are some shots of a board I have recently finished that you might enjoy. Photos at the link link [URL=http://s156.photobucket.com/user/4167MGK/media/Advance%20to%20the%20Meuse%20Terrain%20Board/DSC_0226_zps68gwe7eo.jpg.html]
[/URL] [URL=http://s156.photobucket.com/user/4167MGK/media/Advance%20to%20the%20Meuse%20Terrain%20Board/DSC_0232_zpsopjy8ndl.jpg.html]
[/URL] [URL=http://s156.photobucket.com/user/4167MGK/media/Advance%20to%20the%20Meuse%20Terrain%20Board/DSC_0238_zpsdhzatvha.jpg.html]
[/URL] [URL=http://s156.photobucket.com/user/4167MGK/media/Advance%20to%20the%20Meuse%20Terrain%20Board/DSC_0225_zpsgjo0etmw.jpg.html]
[/URL] |
Mark68 | 04 Mar 2016 11:30 p.m. PST |
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Sgt RV | 07 Mar 2016 6:15 p.m. PST |
Game site called The Perfect Captain has 4ft by 6ft game boards made out as cards. For England France some of Low countries and AWI all gridded. Give it a look |
Mark68 | 07 Mar 2016 11:06 p.m. PST |
@Sgt RV – Will do, thank you |
fozman | 10 Mar 2016 6:46 a.m. PST |
@Mark68, apologies for the delay in responding… how you use the link that I gave is if you're looking at a WW2 War Diary (for example as an idea for a scenario), then you can take the grid references that they record, plug them into the relevant box on that site that I gave the link for & it will then take you to a Googlemap of the location which will then enable you to have a look round to see what the terrain is like (accepting that it might have changed a lot since the war) |
kevanG | 28 Mar 2016 5:20 a.m. PST |
I did all my terrain as 2 foot square tiles and completely flat. alternatively you can use a mat, then do everything else except rivers (and roads in snow) as an overlay. Hills, fences roads. buildings are best done on irregular templates with all the associated detritus on them. use the linear features as the edges to the terrain bases. I do rivers sculpted into the 2 ' x 2' tiles and 2' x 1' half tiles. Beaches are 2' x 4'. Ridges and very large hills are individually sculpted as overlay features. This really helps the visuals. The most important thing is to pick colours you like and stick to them across all your terrain. That helps greatly getting the visuals to blend. |
Mark68 | 06 Apr 2016 4:14 a.m. PST |
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UshCha | 09 Oct 2016 10:09 a.m. PST |
If you want to get a flavour of urban fighting in Europe use 10 to 15 building, if they have no back gardens space not more than two tanks widths apart ideally 1 tank width apart in an irregular square patten and make sure the interior houses can't easily, of preferably not at all be shot at from outside the village. Makes for an interesting gam ed for a platoon of troops. |