"How many flags for Patriot/Continental Battalions?" Topic
15 Posts
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SJDonovan | 11 Feb 2016 2:17 p.m. PST |
I've always assumed that Patriot battalions only carried a single standard but did any of them carry more than one colour? I'm asking because I am just about to paint up some standard bearers and was wondering how many to do per unit. |
Der Alte Fritz | 11 Feb 2016 2:33 p.m. PST |
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JimDuncanUK | 11 Feb 2016 2:56 p.m. PST |
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SJDonovan | 11 Feb 2016 3:14 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys. They'll definitely be getting one. I heartily disapprove of chaps who don't carry flags. |
Winston Smith | 11 Feb 2016 3:26 p.m. PST |
One. Obviously they have no use for a King's colour. The trick is matching the few patterns we know about to a specific regiment. That's when you say "This one looks nice." |
Supercilius Maximus | 11 Feb 2016 4:04 p.m. PST |
Five. One for a regimental colour (normally the facing colour of the unit) and four for the grand division colours – usually red, buff, blue and white. Of course, that's if you're doing it all at 1:1. |
robert piepenbrink | 11 Feb 2016 4:33 p.m. PST |
And if you've got enough men. Steuben pushed for "divisions" of no fewer than 160 rank and file and not to reach 320, so often it took at least a regiment to make up a division. (Did those consolidated Virginia and Maryland regiments in the southern campaign carry only one standard each? Probably, but I don't know for sure.) Not to be the dissenting voice, but you don't need a king to carry two colors. I think you do sometimes see a reference to a "national" color in addition to the regimental. That may have been theory at the time, but it was certainly practice in later American wars. Again. Few surviving flags or even sketches of flags, and very rare to have one specifically linked to a regiment. My own regiments carry one each, and I try to have the ground of the standard match the facing color of the uniforms. |
nevinsrip | 11 Feb 2016 4:53 p.m. PST |
Can someone explain the Waxhaws flag to me then? Obviously these were carried in battle. Were they not captured, would their existence be denied? It seems to me that many more flags were carried by the Americans than is widely believed. And I site the Waxhaws flags as proof of this theory. People rallying to a cause, need a symbol for that cause. My own OPINION is that dozens of different flags were flown that we just don't know about. Why would we think that the Cullpepper Minutemen were the only county unit in the AWI to have their own flag. My guess is that they all did. Most likely homespun and taken home after the war by the owner or senior officer. Unfortunately, never to be seen again. |
Supercilius Maximus | 11 Feb 2016 5:01 p.m. PST |
@ robert – I think you may be a little confused; Steuben kept a regiment or battalion to a maximum of 160 files, above that it was split into two (however, this was rare). A "division" or "grand division" was two companies – thus there were four in a battalion/regiment. The absence of a "national" colour (imitating the King's Colour in British service) was down to nothing more than committee intransigence. The 1779 clothing regulations led to an attempt to provide a two-colour system, and dark blue was chosen for this; however, nobody could agree on what emblem should go in the centre – the turkey and the beaver were both suggested, but it wasn't until the War of 1812 that US troops carried two colours into battle, the eagle having been chosen. (Interesting to think that America's first "war" (post-independence) was against Republican France, which had adopted the cockerel – thus, if the committee had made a different choice, you could have had two armies advancing into battle under either a chicken and a turkey, or else a cock and a beaver.) In 1775, Charles Lee suggested a facing-colour regimental flag, plus four division colours and this was done, primarily in New England regiments, I believe. Knox (I think) later proposed a two-colour system with a State emblem on the "regimental" colour, but also with four divisional colours, and Washington appointed him to the committee to find a suitable emblem for the national one; the regimental colour was always based on the facings for the 1779 clothing regs. In fact, facing tone for the regimental colour was done almost from the start of the war – the numbered Continental regiments of 1776 all had this (or were supposed to). Prior to that, if any flags were carried they were pre-war militia flags. |
Early morning writer | 11 Feb 2016 9:54 p.m. PST |
And yet another addition to the discussion. We are talking about a period without any form of distance communication except music – and, um – flags. I doubt, to a rather high degree, that very many, if any, units went into battle without some form of a flag. Even those British grenadiers. How else would a general a mile away have any sense of which unit was where? Once again, I think a strangely detached sense of reality rears its head in relation to the American revolution. Rather like all those people think those vast quantities of cloth purchased for uniforms never got worn. Doubtful, doubtful. And why, as I've asked before, can a battle before or after in Europe have an officer complain about his troops being "naked" and we understand they don't mean without clothes but without certain elements of a "proper" uniform but when it is the topical conflict we actually think they mean "skinning dipping" attire, or close to it? Well, some of you do. Not me. Granted, the hard evidence is thin on the ground. But I just bring a modicum of common sense. If all those uniforms purchased at public expense – just imagine the howling chorus that would certainly have been raised? Yet, I recall not a single quote anywhere on this. That absence speaks a volume to my thought process. |
Bill N | 12 Feb 2016 10:22 a.m. PST |
From my readings flags actually carried per battalion or regiment ranged from zero to three. Unless it is clear that a unit carried more than one flag (SC continentals for example seem to have carried two), I will either use none or one. |
nevinsrip | 12 Feb 2016 1:58 p.m. PST |
I think that we would all agree that there is no right answer to this. Just not enough hard information to go by. So, use whatever makes you happy. |
B6GOBOS | 12 Feb 2016 2:35 p.m. PST |
In my miniature armies I give Continental line battalions two colors and militia one. After reading Regimental colors of the War of the Revolution by Gherardi Davis and Standards and Colors of the American Revolution by Richardson I agree there were a lot more American flags out there and a lot we not know. So I have based what I do on what I can document and then use conjecture. Thus militia battalions get one color with Liberty or such patriotic motto based on captured flags from Long Island or White Plains. Continental battalions get two flags. If I cannot match a historical one with the battalion I create on based on the Rhode Island regimental flag ( plain color withheld canton of stars or stripes and scroll in center with regimental number). I use this design as you can document other state flags using similar styles. The second color is a grand division color, again with a upper canton of stripes or stars. See so called Dansey color for example. I make these the same size as the regimental (yes I know it is wrong) and use these to mark units within a brigade (all units within a brigade have same grand division color). It is colorful, looks good on the table and makes me happy. |
Bill N | 15 Aug 2016 9:31 p.m. PST |
This seems to be the best place to post this: Adj. Gen. Alexander Scammell had made this situation especially clear in a return of 5 Sept. 1778, given in response to an order from George Washington in the general orders of 2 Sept. 1778. Scammell's return showed that fifteen Continental brigades, consisting of about fifty regiments, held only twenty-six regimental standards, one regimental color, and forty-seven "Grand Division" colors; and of these, twenty-nine were in "bad" condition. (From the Founders Online website) |
historygamer | 16 Aug 2016 5:37 a.m. PST |
"We are talking about a period without any form of distance communication except music – …" At best (and that is a stretch) drums might be used at a battalion leval, but not beyond. Good luck trying to hear a drum signal in the middle of a battle, and then trying to figure out if it's your battalion's or the one next to you. "….and, um – flags. I doubt, to a rather high degree, that very many, if any, units went into battle without some form of a flag." Yes we know they did do just that. We know there were no Guards, Lights or Grenadier flags. I think, as gamers, we place a reliance on them that they didn't back then. "Even those British grenadiers." See above. "How else would a general a mile away have any sense of which unit was where?" Because they didn't. Read the new book on the battle of Monmouth – Fatal Sunday. General Lee had no idea where his regiments/brigades were, even when next to them. He was dependent on guess work and the limited amount of staff officers to help him out – which as the book shows, did not always work out so well. Clinton suffered from the same problems during his attack too – he had no idea where the other brigades were while he was leading the Grens and Guards attacking the American lines. |
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