redcoat | 11 Feb 2016 5:45 a.m. PST |
Hi all, I am becoming fascinated with the air war over Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and was wondering whether American aircraft hitting the Ho Chi Minh Trail met much opposition, whether in the form of AAA, SAMs or communist aircraft, or even small-arms fire? I am especially interested in the first phase of the American effort, from 1965 until 1968. For example, did the Americans lose many aircraft over the trail to hostile action? Many, many thanks for any help! Redcoat |
Martin Rapier | 11 Feb 2016 6:35 a.m. PST |
There seems to be loads of data online about overall losses, and for specific operations – the main 1965-68 one was Rolling Thunder and cost the US over 900 aircraft, but it isn't explicitly broken down into air ops over North Vietnam, and air ops over the trail (which was a hug piece of territory). Over the north you've got the lot, SAMs, AAA, fighters etc. |
Legion 4 | 11 Feb 2016 8:32 a.m. PST |
I am becoming fascinated with the air war over Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia I knew some USAF pilots when I was an Air Ops Ofc in the 101. While at the USAF Air Ground Ops Course. They were not so fascinated. As far as SAMs. In '72 during the US Air Op, Linebacker over Hanoi. link The NVA were running out of SAMs. And it forced them back to the peace talks table. As US B-52s, F-111s, etc. were turning the city and surrounding area into a doppelganger of the dark side of the moon. The USAF/USN/USMC did take some losses during that ops. |
emckinney | 11 Feb 2016 10:29 a.m. PST |
SAMs did not operate on the trail. Much of it was simply inaccessible to the heavy trucks and trailers of an SA-2 battery. AAA up to 75mm was encountered, often in flak traps. Small arms fire, of course. I don't know about losses off-hand, but they weren't heavy enough to be significant. |
Legion 4 | 11 Feb 2016 12:48 p.m. PST |
I too believe that is correct. I remember at Air/Ground Ops course. Seeing gun camera footage of an AC-130 flying over Ho's Trail at night. The 105 opened on a column of NVA T-55s moving along the Trail. It was a very effective aerial AT weapon. |
Fatman | 11 Feb 2016 1:48 p.m. PST |
Not sure about totals but, according to the Centre for Air Force History, from Feb 62 to Jan 68 a total of 109 USAF aircraft were lost in combat with an additional13 lost to operational causes during operations to "Reduce North Vietnamese infiltration through Laos". Now as that is only part of the war and one, admittedly major, stretch of the Trail I presume the total losses were a lot higher. PDF link The above is a link to the relevant study in PDF hope this helps Fatman |
McKinstry | 11 Feb 2016 4:03 p.m. PST |
We could see the gunships working the Trail and literally feel when the B-52's were working the Trail beyond the mountains past Savannakhet from NKP (Oct 71-Oct72). I know we lost an 0-2 and an OV-10 (crashed on take off, pilot more or less OK) and I'm pretty sure Ubon lost an AC-130. I don't recall us ever losing an AC-119 (which we had at NKP) or any A-1's, CH-3's, HH-53's while I was there although overall I know they had lost Jolly's (CH-3/HH-53)and Nails (O-2's/OV-10's) prior for certain. Since most missions were over Laos and Trail or SAR related, AAA was a real threat and without swearing on the veracity of 45 year old memories, I think there were early Manpads as a threat to anything low and slow which 90% of our aircraft were. |
Col Durnford | 11 Feb 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
At a time when one aircraft lost is news for weeks, those numbers are striking. |
McKinstry | 15 Feb 2016 11:53 a.m. PST |
Just helicopters in Vietnam 1 205 was destroyed (Air America) 270 AH-1G were destroyed 1 AH-1J was destroyed 1 BELL was destroyed 14 CH-21C were destroyed 2 CH-34 were destroyed 1 CH-37B was destroyed 1 CH-37C was destroyed 7 CH-3C were destroyed 7 CH-3E were destroyed 94 CH-46A were destroyed 58 CH-46D were destroyed 83 CH-47A were destroyed 20 CH-47B were destroyed 29 CH-47C were destroyed 12 CH-53A were destroyed 2 CH-53C were destroyed 9 CH-53D were destroyed 9 CH-54A were destroyed 2 H-37A were destroyed 21 HH-3E were destroyed 7 HH-43B were destroyed 6 HH-43F were destroyed 2 HH-53B were destroyed 7 HH-53C were destroyed 147 OH-13S were destroyed 93 OH-23G were destroyed 45 OH-58A were destroyed 842 OH-6A were destroyed 3 SH-34G were destroyed 8 SH-3A were destroyed 3 SIOUX were destroyed 60 UH-1 were destroyed 1 UH-1A was destroyed 357 UH-1B were destroyed 365 UH-1C were destroyed 886 UH-1D were destroyed 90 UH-1E were destroyed 18 UH-1F were destroyed 1313 UH-1H were destroyed 1 UH-1N was destroyed 6 UH-2A were destroyed 6 UH-2B were destroyed 176 UH-34D were destroyed Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827 |
Legion 4 | 16 Feb 2016 10:10 a.m. PST |
Ouch !!!! I knew it was high … but never saw it all totalled up like that … That is like almost 50% … I figured it was closer to 33% … it appears not … |
Blutarski | 16 Feb 2016 3:46 p.m. PST |
IIRC, those loss numbers reflect exactly what it says – helicopters destroyed and written off. They don't reflect those helicopters shot down, retrieved, repaired and returned to service. B |
McKinstry | 16 Feb 2016 4:52 p.m. PST |
KIA list for pilots and crew (haven't seen one for passengers) as I recall runs nearly to 5,000. There were probably more dangerous jobs in Southeast Asia but not that many. Brave men. |
badger22 | 16 Feb 2016 6:25 p.m. PST |
When I first enlisted I knew a former door gunner who says he sat on his flack jacket in a UH-1 as they took more fire from below than the sides. I also had a coworker later who had been a Navy gunners mate. Him and his buddy where bored on ship, so his buddy volunteered both of them to be door gunners. I guess on SAR but he never really said. He did say he wasnt bored anymore, just scared to death. Owen |
Weasel | 16 Feb 2016 7:51 p.m. PST |
McKinstry – Would you happen to have any info on the distribution of those losses ? Small arms, rockets, ZPU, crew mistake/equipment malfunction etc. ? |
McKinstry | 16 Feb 2016 9:59 p.m. PST |
I did not find anything such as that but if that information exists for the public, the Army Aviation Museum in Ft. Rucker (Enterprise, AL) has it. (Interesting unrelated thing – Super 68 of Black Hawk Down/Mike Durant fame was recovered and brought back to the museum and restored) I did find the KIA data. Total helicopter pilots killed in the Vietnam War was 2,202. Total non-pilot crew members was 2704. Estimated that over 40,000 helicopter pilots served in the Vietnam War. |
Blutarski | 17 Feb 2016 7:00 a.m. PST |
"Would you happen to have any info on the distribution of those losses ?" Wasn't there, but from the reading I have done it seems that the most dangerous NVA anti-aircraft weapon over the course of the war in South Vietnam was the Degtyarev 12.7mm AA HMG. Heavier AA weapons (14.5mm HMG, 23mm and 37mm auto-cannon) were uncommon in the South and appear to have been used for low/medium altitude AA coverage at home in North Vietnam proper and to protect NVA logistics routes and complexes in Laos and Cambodia. The SA-7 did not appear in SVN until fairly late in the war. B |
Risaldar Singh | 20 Feb 2016 10:11 a.m. PST |
SAM-2s were deployed along the Ho Chi Minh trail in 1971 and the first AC-130 loss to a SAM-2 occured in March 1972. |