"Did Austrian Horse Grenadiers carry flags?" Topic

Specifically, did the ad hoc formations of converged Horse Grenadiers in the Austrian service take their dragoon banners with them?

I would GUESS not.
Based purely on your statement that they were ad hoc collections. Stripped sub units left flags behind.

No.

I would guess YES, because they were hived off in whole squadrons and each squadron had colours.

There was only 1 horse grenadier COMPANY in a dragoon regiment: SQUADRONS were formed by 2 companies, so 12 Dragoon coys formed 6 sqns, but the single Horse Grenadier coy in each regiment had no-one to pair with.

KRONOSKAF states that 'A regiment of dragoons had 12 ordinary companies (in 6 squadrons) and a company of horse grenadiers. Therefore, each dragoon regiment carried 13 guidons (1 Leibstandarte and 12 Ordinair-standarten).'

Therefore, the 13rd guidon was not a coy guidon for the Horse Grenadiers: ergo they didn't have a banner.

According to Summerfield's book on the Austrian army, the horse grenadier company had an ensign who carried the standard. (Page 81).

Pengel & Hurt also indicate that the horse grenadier company had a kornet (ie. an officer who carried a standard). p&g also indicate that one of the six squadrons on a dragoon regiment was composed of horse grenadiers -> therefore two horse grenadier companies in the dragoon regiment.

Christopher Duffy in "Instrument of War" page 252 states that the wartime establishment of a dragoon regiment in 1756 was six ordinary squadrons and one elite squadron of horse grenadiers.

There is enough support from the above sources to indicate that horse grenadiers carried standards.

Thank you, all.

Many thanks Fred the G.
Appreciated.

Within the regiment it can be shown that horse grenadiers had standards. Your original question of whether they took them with them when they were "converged out" has still not been answered, though.

so just the Prussian hussars didn't carry standard

so just the Prussian hussars didn't carry standard

Some did, according to Kronoskaf.

No flags for Austrian horse grenadiers. See dragoon organization in Kronoskaf. That's the one you need for the SYW period. It's a 100% save. I did the initial edit based on most trusted source material. If you find any other records in English language books, consider that as typo or poor or sloppy translation of German source material. With the more then educated good professor Duffy, I'd take his squadron as a typo – most certainly the fault of the publishers proof reading department.
Flags were only introduced in 1767 or 1769 when the horse grenadiers were stripped from their regiments and 2, or so, horse grenadier regiments were raised. But not before.

Cheers,
Christian
crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.com

P.S.: The confusion may be the result of the horse grenadier company's higher strength with 100 men as opposed to the 75 of the ordinary horse companies. In tactical respect, the horse grenadier company was often employed the way a squadron was used – and, as a result, may have been entitled as such when studying contemporary records like battle reports or orders.

Christian, how do you then account for the table on pg.81 in Summerfield's book (referenced above) 'Austrian Seven Years War Cavalry and Artillery – Uniforms, Organisation and Equipment', that clearly states for an Austrian Horse Grenadier company (3 officers and 97 other ranks): 1 Fähnrich (Ensign who carried the standard until 1760 when he was renamed Unterlieutenant).

Kronoskaf states of dragoons generally: "This organisation remained basically unaltered for most of the war, aside from a few minor changes. In 1759, the staff companies Hauptmann position (captain-proprietor) was assigned to a lieutenant-captain, and the Fähnerich position to a designated standard bearer of NCO rank, while the Fähnerich would now serve as second lieutenant (Unterlieutenant)."
link

Note that in Kronoskaf the 3 officers mentioned for Horse Grenadiers are not divided into their actual proper titles (they are just recorded as 'officers'). This could be seen as an ommission of detail – or more likely to be interpreted as 'the same as already expanded immediately above' – not as evidence that one of them was not a standard bearer. It could be argued that the 3 Horse Grenadier 'officers' were in fact more precisely the very same 1 captain, 1 lieutenant, 1 Fahnrich (officer standard bearer) already detailed immediately above for the dragoon companies. That is how I would interpret it.

?

Cheers

What muddies the issue and hurts the idea of Horse Grenadiers having standards is this bit, firstly from Kronoskaf:

'In 1751, a new regulation stipulated that each dragoon regiment would now have only 6 guidons.'
link

and then Summerfield:

'Each squadron carried one standard on campaign."

So what became of the company standard bearers? (Presumably at least 12 before 1758 + 1 for the grenadier company. From 1758, according to Summerfield, 5 squadrons + 1 horse grenadier company, = 10 + 1.) If they did not carry their company banner on campaign, and it was only a squadron standard and its bearer that was utilised, it doesn't look likely that a Horse Grenadier *company* would have carried its banner *on campaign*.

@inverugie stated:
"KRONOSKAF states that 'A regiment of dragoons had 12 ordinary companies (in 6 squadrons) and a company of horse grenadiers. Therefore, each dragoon regiment carried 13 guidons (1 Leibstandarte and 12 Ordinair-standarten).' "

Where is this please? I can't find it. Link?

I'm not confident that the original question re standards for converged Horse Grenadier 'regiments' can be answered without these above details being reconciled first.

Cheers

@Snowcat,

As said, the breakdown for the 100 carabiniers or horse grenadiers in Kronoskaf is correct. There is neither a cornet found with the carabiniers, nor a Fähnerich found with the horse grenadiers. The three officers of the horse grenadiers were the same ranks as with the carabiniers, accounting for a Rittmeister or Captain, an Oberlieutenant and an Unterlieutenant. Each regt took 6 flags to the field. Not 7.

Cheers,
Christian

Christian, if Kronoskaf is correct as you say (so what is the most trusted source material you allude to?), then the information on cornets and standard bearers listed for carabiniers and horse grenadiers respectively in Summerfield's book must be incorrect. Summerfield cites Schirmer as his reference for the carabinier organisation (within 'cuirassier organisation') on pg 34.
Schirmer, Friedrich, (1989) Die Heere der Kriegfuhrenden Staaten 1756-1763, Revised New Edition, Book 2, KLIO-Landsgruppe.
There is no direct reference for the dragoon regiment organisation table on pg 81 of Summerfield's book however.

Christian: "Each regt took 6 flags to the field. Not 7."

Yes, I covered that in my previous post:
…firstly from Kronoskaf:

'In 1751, a new regulation stipulated that each dragoon regiment would now have only 6 guidons.'
link

and then Summerfield:

'Each squadron carried one standard on campaign.'

Interestingly, Duffy in 'Instrument of War' (pg 252) gives standards (1756-) to both elite companies of cuirassiers and dragoons. He states the 3 officers of those elite companies were the same as for the cuirassier and dragoon ordinari squadron companies: 1 Rittmeister (cuirassier)/Haubtmann (dragoons), 1 Lieutenant, 1 Cornet or Unter-Lieutenant.
From 1758, he adds that 'The new NCO rank of Standartenfuhrer took over the carrying of the company standard from the cornets, who now became Unter-Lieutenants; the former Lieutenants were re-named Ober-Lieutenants.'

There is still some doubt that these elite company standards (even if they existed contrary to opposing views) were carried into battle.

Cheers

@Snowcat,

Ah, I see the point. I own a copy of this Schirmer soucre. Make it the German equivalent source guide for painting miniatures what is Pengel & Hurt etc. is to the English speaking world. Good stuff, in general, but not free of errors.
My kronoskaf edit is based on the information provided in "Großer Generalstab, Kriegsgeschichtliche Abteilung II (Publisher). Die Kriege Friedrichs des Großen. Dritter Teil: Der Siebenjährige Krieg 1756–1763. Vol. 1 – Pirna und Lobositz, Berlin 1901". Schirmer obviously also got his information from this very same source. You can catch it from the same style of presenting the figures. All in detail for the carabiniers and saying it was the same with the horse grenadiers. But, Schirmer does for some odd reason include a Cornet with his Carabinier company. That is an error. In any case, the gentlemen of the Military History Department of the German Großer Generalstab should be considered as – so much more reliable – they never let me down. So far, I only once came across a single conflicting record. That 's their appendix information of the Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel army which accounts for a grenadier battalion Wittdorf raised in 1760, but you also have a battalion Wittorf in the battle of Minden 1759. The single non-match I have so far encountered with this source.

Hmm, interesting. Thanks. I'll see if I can track down a copy.

I'd like to know where Duffy got his information on re that quote I provided above, as it's quite 'compelling'.

Cheers