"Why 2nd and 3rd coalition so unpopular?" Topic

In my old age, I finally have become fascinated with Napoleonic history and miniature gaming, having only played some cursory Napoleonic miniature games 20 years ago and a couple wargames. Reading over the history and watching videos on the period, I thought I would taken by the later years and maybe Waterloo.

But I've have fallen for the time during the 2nd and 3rd coalition, with Marengo, Austerlitz, and all the other smaller battles along the way. I love the look of the armies and the crazy mix of uniforms. Interesting tactics as well it seems, though I'm still learning.

I've noticed that there isn't all that much love this period among as many gamers and miniature manufacturers as I would have thought. (I don't see much if anything for Marengo French armies from Old Glory in 25mm, for example. Nor do I see many battle reports from these periods.)

Just curious why folks don't game it as much as the Peninsular campaign and later?

2nd Coalition is a great period. Souvorov's Italian campaign is a masterpiece that I would like to do. Indeed both the 1st and the 2nd Coalition provide me with a host of scenario ideas.

For me, who games 10mm, there aren't enough figures to justify doing the 2nd Coalition, although now we're getting more figures for the 3rd.

3rd Coalition suffers because most games boil down to the rules "Empire IV" aka "The French Win Ha Ha Ha". Many of the battles were lost before they even started. That said, given proper leadership the fights can be much harder.

The Peninsular has the advantage that many of the battles are smaller and you can game them without bath-tubbing. Since many wargamers have English as a first (or only) language it's also accessible.

Minifigs covers the period pretty well in 15mm. You'll have to look in each nation's catalog listings to find them though….they (UK) never promoted them as French Rev Era as a separate "period", and grouped all the nations together.

The figs are very well done, IMHO!

Tom

My favorite slice of the Napoleonic Era is 1805 through 1807 because the French army and leaders were at the height of its/their powers and because the uniforms look so much better than in the later periods of the wars. I really like the 1806 Prussian army and the 1805-1807 Russian army. The Russians in particular are a good foe of the French for wargaming purposes and seem evenly matched with the French army, IMHO.

Great topic…much like Mister T I find myself drawn to the more obscure periods of the Napoleonic era, and the more obscure armies (Kosciuszko Uprising, anyone?). Wellesley in India, 1806 Prussians (not AS obscure), Marengo…all of these could be rather cool to game, but complete ranges in 10mm or 15mm are kinda lacking. Short of paying new 18mm prices for MiniFig's old 15mm ranges, or going more mainstream, it ain't easy to immerse one into these earlier periods.

A promising company for Poland 1794: uprisingminiatures.com

And a great blog on Marengo:
marengo1800.blogspot.com

IMHO initially:
1 very few decent miniatures
2 old rules had a real quality overpowering edge to the French making the others hard to play.
3 minis being a lot from Brits, for Brits, ( till Old glory at least), Penninsular was ( still is) the Thing, so post 1809 minis. Then when you have them, you want period ennemies up to a point.
Then every manuf and his uncle did 1812 Russians…

For pre 1805 there is a lack of English info, or was. Maybe.

Because it's all about the Confederation of the Rhine!

My favorites are 1809 and post Russia to Waterloo. French can still be nasty, but everyone has a chance

"you can game them without bath-tubbing"

Bath-tubbing? What does that mean?

I've always been fascinated by them, particularly Austerlitz. As for the "Empire French Win" twist(ed), my newly painted 1806 Prussians are 2-0 against the mighty French. The bubble may burst in time, but right now the only real liability is leadership, and it should be.

Bath-tubing: Scaling down campaigns or battles to make it fit with the space you have ("fit the Pacific in a Bath tub"). Used by GDW for their Barbarossa module for Command Decision. In that case it was each Corps/Army was represented bay a Division or Equivalent. Each 25km on the map was reduced to 1 (ground scale)km on the table.

I'm stil waiting for a propper range of 1805-1807 russians in 28mm.

Closest thing is brigade games, but its still not complete even years after brigade games bought it from victrix.

Also freaking expensive.

Lots of bicorned french, not alot of enemies for them too fight.

Elite do a very big range of 1805-1807 Russians, and French, in 28mm.

John

+1 for Der Alte Fritz's comments.

Also, if you do it in 15mm you find the AB range has almost everything you'll need for the earlier period.

Ist and 2nd Coalition are amongst my favourite conflicts (if you can have such a thing) – I guess they tend to get overlooked because they aren't really Napoleonic though they do have numerous elements and characters in common. The lack of figures is part of teh appeal I think – having to improvise everything or convert figures. I am currently trying to build armies in 10, 20 and 28/30mm. Non are ideal so I keep switching…

Oh and 3rd Coalition probably suffers because people want to fight Waterloo and Borodino and can't face raising those armies again in their earlier form as they nearly all change their appearance as the wars progress…

I just used my 1812/1815 figures for Marengo and Austerlitz, I'm really not that fussy.

I suspect the rela problem is that there aren't any Imperial Guard Grenadiers, 12pdrs or Polish Lancers at Marengo.

Same reason most WW2 games are 1944/45.

Martin
Me neither – I suspect that there is difference between what you see at shows and in magazines to what goes on in the attics and basements of the world. Where no one will spring up and say – "You can't have that at Austerlitz" or whatever… Yes there is probably also an element of people wanting to field elite units but there is a lot of colorful stuff in those early campaigns too.

I think if you get into Napoleonics as a kid it is almost inevitable that you work backwards from Waterloo. That's the most famous battle so that is where you start. This forms your conceptions of what Napoleonic battles look like. It is all infantry in shakos, Scots Greys, and Polish Lancers. The next most famous thing is the Retreat from Moscow so there's a good chance that's where you go next. So it's still infantry in shakos and Polish lancers.

I remember being genuinely surprised when I discovered that in the early days Napoleonic troops wore bicornes. They looked incredibly old-fashioned and frankly un-Napoleonic to me. And if I'm honest, they still do.

If you are fussy, remember between Marengo and Austerlitz the French move from being a Republic to being an Empire their flags change.

In general people are drawn to the biggest battles in an era. The biggest battles in the Napoleonic era were 1812-1815.

You can do 3rd coalition with Lancer 10mm and even some of the 2nd.

In general people are drawn to the biggest battles in an era. The biggest battles in the Napoleonic era were 1812-1815.

Wagram was bigger then borodino and Waterloo and in 1809, But then 1909 is a popular period…

Eylau was about the size of Waterloo – the prussians.

Leipzig.

a british orientated hobby needs british involvement and there wasn't a lot in this period. And because of that no interest and no information

28mm

Trent Miniatures have a "Later French Revolutionary Wars (1796-1800)" range:

northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=60&cat=171&page=1

and Eureka too:

eurekaminusa.com/collections/wars-of-the-revolution

Both ranges are incomplete. But there are 5 or more ranges of the waterloo/spanish period.

those early campaigs are far more attractive than later Napoleonics – nicer uniforms, much much more interesting generals – especially on the French side, like Hoche, Custine, Kleber, Lecourbe, Marceau, Desaix, Moreau, Richpance to name a few, very intresting theatres of war, high Alpine warfare to Egypt.

In my opinion a good bread and butter line, covering most of the nations involved is missing.

Last year we had a great time replaying the whole Marengo campaign on an operational level with 11 players over a whole year, about a one day move each week. The campaign was unbathtubbed, and the battles used 1:20 scale, with the terrain build from google maps for each of our now famous although fictional campaign battles. Everything was extremely historical and realistic, except that the french and austrians were 1813 minis (6 mm adler) and the prussians emulated Piemontese. Everybody had a magnificent time.
Off course we would rather have used the historical minis, but I would rather play a realistic, exciting battle – with the wrong miniatures, than some of the – wall to wall unit – stuff in 28 mm trying to represent a Napoleonic battle in impeccable uniforms for the presented battle, but with no resemblance of tactics or ground scale.

But each to his own :-) I am currently building a 1800 french army in 6 mm along with my 1813 stuff which in 1: 20 has no end :-)

Hello Mister Tibbles!

I think SJDonovan and Brownbear have nailed it. The main attraction by far is Waterloo, with the rest cascading backwards accordingly. The hobby is dominated by my British cousins who love their rich history. No British victories, little interest, small market.

Best regards,

Glenn

Wonderful generalisation! I must be in a minority. Have never been interested in wargaming Waterloo nor British armies. I would suggest that a large proportion of British war gamers actually prefer the French campaigns with or without British involvement. Personally have always gamed Russian,Austrian and Prussian.

I've been exploring the whole 1799-1800 era of the wars, starting from a Marengo project. I've ended up with Venetians, Piedmontese, Egyptian campaign and others in my collection and its only the tip of the iceberg. I'd love to see early Bavarians, Russians, Prussians and all the Italian armies explored properly.

Chad and binaries, you must belong to the happy few who know something about the period and armies and thus like it.
But the majority only like the rather boring Waterloo campaign, otherwise i cannot explain the enormous amount of 1815 figures and books available.

Brown bear I think it was just the bicentenary.

Good point Chad47, but I think the fascination with Waterloo has always been there and always will be there. The bicentenary just highlighted it and presented an opportunity for a number of merchants to increase their sales.

Glenn you're probably right, although personally I think it was overkill.

When I worked on the AB Figures stand at shows in the UK (and packing the odd order in the workshop) we would sell FAR more Austrians, Russians and Prussians than British and I certainly didn't get the impression from sales and talking to other Napoleonic gamers in the UK that the Peninsular War was the 'big' Napoleonic period. Far from it, in fact.

You would never sell more British figures. There a much smaller army.

Watching videos of all the bicentennial reenactors is what sparked my interest. I found the displays even more fascinating since they invited any and all reenactor units, so I was able to watch units that never were even close to fighting at Waterloo. But as I mentioned I drifted toward the earlier period.

This has been a good discussion so far. Food for thought.