"Combat Patrol WW2 Skirmish Rules" Topic

"Do you have what it takes to be part of a combat patrol during WWII? Making your way along some seemingly quiet road in, say Europe, just checking out the scenery, making sure no Nazis are laying in wait. Of course, being a skirmish game we're talking about here, "there's not actually enemies around and we're just going for a nice walk" isn't much of a scenario. There's going to be enemies, and now you can play out these encounters with Combat Patrol, a WWII skirmish game that Sally 4th will be publishing for UK/European audiences.

If you're one of those gamers who the dice gods hate, this is a system you might want to check out. Combat Patrol uses the G.A.M.E.R. game engine. It's completely diceless! So if you're sick of rolling 1s for all your saves, this is your game.

The system also isn't set to any specific scale, and doesn't have any specific miniatures for it. So you can feel free to use whatever WWII figures you have laying around, from Bolt Action to Flames of War"

Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

Many thanks for posting link.
This game has realy captivated me. I have been gaming WW2 for 35 years now and have played most rulesets that have been published and have had some great games, however this game is something completely different to any other miniatures set that I have come across. It has all of the detail and tactics of the other games I have played with out the charts, quick reference sheets and rulebook look ups mid game. The mechanics have been streamlined by the unique use of custom cards for combat resoloution.

Sally 4th are publishing and are happy to supply to any shop or trader that wants to carry the rules, so if your local hobby shop does not stock them, tell them to get in touch!

A votre service mon ami!. (smile)

Thanks for your guidance!.

Amicalement
Armand

I am very impressed with this game.

Joe

This Tuesday, Nick & I had a very exciting game and close run game when US & German Para's came to grips at close quarters in a Normandy market town on D+1.

wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/Combat-Patrol-Street-Fight-Normandy

1 inch equals 5 yards is 1:180 – 10mm not 28mm.

OK mate, can't fault your maths, and your quite right, cracking game with any scale figure from 10mm to 28mm!

The game information says that the scale is "close" to the figure scale (see link It doesn't say "the same as." "Close" is in the eye of beholder. I was trying to develop something that had the right balance between playability and aesthetics. I don't like when long range is 12 inches; on the other hand, I don't like when short range is the entire table. So is the game scale "the same as" the figure scale? No. Is it "close," *I* think so when compared to other sets of rules, but opinions may vary. :)

Nice battle report, Chris. Thanks for posting.

Buck

1/180 isn't close. CoC is 1:120th, so approx 10-15mm figures

It is probably meant to be 1"=5 FOOT, which is right for 28mm.

Am interested. No gripe in the cost being the cards, as that is obviously where the efforts are from the description. My reservation is that there are 2 packs- Why? Would I need both? 46 quid is a bit steep for a game, where 23 I can consider.

You would only need both packs if you had 5-8 players and you were providing a seperate action deck for each player. Each set contains an activation deck and four 50 card action decks, one for each player. These cost £22.50 GBP and the infantry combat rules are free to download and the full set with vehicles, HE etc. are just £3.25 GBP to download.

Top quality cards are very expensive to produce, so £22.50 GBP for 4 x 50 card decks & 1 x 24 card deck is great value.

If you wanted a different ground scale, it would be very easy just to double ranges and move rates, but I find playing on a 6' x 4' table the ranges work fine and give the right feel. In a wargame their is always a trade off between ground scale and figure scale. I can fill a 6' x 4' table with buildings (as I manufacture them!) and call it a town. It's maybe 24 buildings, so really it's just a street, but it looks OK and plays OK.

Here's link to our Combat Patrol page wargamesbuildings.co.uk/epages/950003459.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950003459/Categories/Combat_Patrol

Winter War, free supplement for Russo-Finnish War

This covers the 1939 Russo-Finnish War with lots of great period campaign specific rules for fighting in the snow including skiing, aero-sleds, spotting in the snow and blowing up frozen lakes together with organisation charts for Soviet and Finnish forces.

It's free to download from :wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Combat-Patrol

This year we are extremely lucky that 'Buck' Surdu, author of Combat Patrol and many, many more great wargames will be joining us to run a participation game at Partizan in Newark on Sunday 22nd May.

If you have not come across Combat Patrol yet, it is a truly innovative set of rules that deliver all of the detail of WW2 combat, up close and personal without any of the chart look ups and quick reference sheets to slow the action down. This is achieved through streamlined design and the unique use of ‘action cards' for combat resolution. Combat Patrol delivers a great game for two players, but due to it's unit activation system can easily accommodate larger numbers of players at club and convention games.

Click here for further details, including free download of rules. wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Combat-Patrol

The game will be played on Sally 4ths recently released Normandy Terrain and will feature US and German Paras, Germany Infantry, and a relief force of US Armoured Infantry linking up from the beach.

The game will kick off around 10:30. You will be able to join in during the day. We have already had some keen Combat Patrollers advance booking places, so if you know you're going to Partizan and you'd like to book a place, please PM me.

A couple of days ago, in true wargamer fashion, I realised that I did not really have enought figures for what Buck and I are planning for Partizan so have just embarked on a 10 day challenge to assemble and paint a US Armoured Infantry Platoon (5 Vehicles, 50 figures) in the next 10 days.

This is the start of the project.
Hopefully in 10 days time I will have a completed photo to post.

I am going to be posting daily blog updates on hobby site as project progresses.
Todays update has the Orbat and the plan…

wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/A-10-Day-Army-Part-1

I have posted 2nd update on our 10 Day Army Blog:

wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/A-10-Day-Army-Part-2]http://wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/A-10-Day-Army-Part-2

Last nights work was assembly of 1st halftrack and 10+ infantry figures.

We curruntly have free downloads of the basic Combat Patrol rules on our web site at: wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Combat-Patrol]http://wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Combat-Patrol, so if you are interested, do have a look, or better still come and have a chat to myself, or 'Buck' at Partizan.

I am now well into the swing of painting US Infantry for our Combat Patrol participation game this weekend at Partizan.
I have got my timings down to six minutes per figure, so I think I'm in with a chance to be finished in time for the game.

I have updated my gaming blog with a step by step painting guide for 6 minute US Infantry.
This is the link for any who are interested:
wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/A-10-Day-Army-Part-3-Painting-28mm-WW2-US-Infantry

Just added some photos of the armored part of the rifle platoon that I put together for Combat Patrol participation game at Partizan yesterday (22nd May 2016).

Full details on hobby blog: wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/A-10-Day-Army-Part-4-The-Vehicles

The new army got painted in time. Only gluing to bases was needed the night before.
We had a great bunch of gamers join us for an epic game of Combat Patrol, that saw our Normandy Town change hands on several occasions.

I took a stack of photos, the first half are loaded up on my hobby blog site :

wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/Combat-Patrol-Participation-Partizan-2016

… more to follow, hopefully tommorow.

I was lucky enough to be a participant in the first game. It was my first try and I have to say I was very impressed. I already have the rules but hadn't got round to playing them, but it certainly helps to have the author explaining them to you! And you were very good too Chris! Oh, by the way that's my decimated squad in the bottom picture.

Glad you enjoyed it.
Our next Combat Patrol participation game will be at Phalanx on 18th June, if you are around you would be very welcome to join us!

Last Saturday we ran a Combat Patrol participation game at Phalanx wargames show in St Helens. Everyone had a great time and before long those joining in understood the rules and were resolving combat themselves.

Lots more photos at:
wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Hobby-Pages/Hobby-Blog/Combat-Patrol-Participation-Game-Phalanx-St-Helens-18th-June-2016

Thats a great rules summary on the blog Chris and looks like this was another successful outing for the rules. I meant to ask, are the graveyards based on CDs…??

Yes, graveyards mounted on CD's.
I like to use them for scatter terrain as they are so nice and thin!

I've just got my copy of Wargames, Soldiers & Strategy – Issue 85.
Their is a great review of Combat Patrol by Eogham Kelly.

"these rules are very good, and the writer has presented what I think are one of the best skirmish systems that I've seen for a long time"
"I think that they are more than very good. These might be one of the truely outstanding sets of skirmish rules you will play!"

So… well done Buck!
I will try to get the review scanned and post the complete article when I get home.

link

We tried them, and found the random activation of units to confound actual infantry tactics – proper "scouts out", "fire and movement" combat, etc. I don't know why there's been this allure to randomized activation of units in so many rules these past years – I find nothing meaningful in having a card-pull system tell me I should activate a unit far in the rear before my engaged units at the tip of the spear [and those in actual contact with the enemy] can react. Yes, there's an interrupt mechanism that might allow for a player to time the activation of some of his units as they approach the enemy, but it is based on luck and penalizes its use – all this just to get an attack (or defense going) from the right direction – at the Front! No, I don't get excited either by the "narrative" of random activation that might impose that a unit far behind, say in the rear of a road column following "nuts to butts", should have somehow been ordered to hop over the lead troops actually engaging the enemy, and before they have a chance to respond to the unfolding firefight (this because of the random sequence that some card-pull mechanic may dictate).

Perhaps these random activation systems work for players who have no idea of how to develop and echelon an attack plan, and so enjoy something dictating what they should do next – to me that's having the game play the players, rather than the players playing the game [and pitting their own tactical skill vs. an opponents best tactics).

Lastly, there's been a movement towards Presentation type gameplay also, where players accept the dictates of limited tactical choice in regards to scenario design, or by the rules system itself. Not something I'm interested in playing or presenting either.

FlyXwire:

Certainly random activation is not everyone's cup of tea. That is not unique to Combat Patrol(TM). Whether randomized activation is more or less like maneuvering real troops on the ground than other activation schemes is essentially a religious argument and a matter of personal taste. Every activation mechanism has its advantages and disadvantages.

Personally, I have found after many years in the military, that the best plan is the one that provides options and the ability to react when things go wrong -- and they nearly always do. Yes, random activation can lead to the odd situation, but on the whole, I like it, and I feel that it does a good job of providing friction that is missing from tabletop games in which the players can see the whole table. IGO-UGO and simultaneous activation schemes suffer from their own set of artificialities. In the 70's those artificialities were addressed through intricate turn sequences with many phases.

Other than the items you discuss, of not knowing when a unit is going to activate next, many activation systems suffer from a number of drawbacks that I have tried to address in the Double Random(TM) activation mechanism used in Combat Patrol(TM) while retaining the unpredictability of randomized activation. The two primary ones are:

1) Sometimes a lot of folks are standing around watching one guy do stuff. In the Double Random(TM) activation scheme everyone whose command die matches the activation card can do things.
2) With an end of turn card, sometimes units don't get to go at all. (I think I can point to historical precedent for this, but some players don't like it.) Combat Patrol(TM) includes several optional rules that mitigate or eliminate this.
3) Because the leader can exchange command dice (under certain circumstances), the rules DO allow the player to have some control of the sequencing of events and can often execute proper fire and maneuver. Also, since fire and movement occurs within the team as well as within the section or platoon, players may sequence the activities of their folks within the team as they see fit. This allows a player to have three figures shoot while three move, for instance.
4) If two units activate with the same number, the player may choose which goes first, enabling him (sometimes) to have one team fire while the other maneuvers. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't -- sort of like real military operations, in my experience.

Finally, at the end of they day, you could certainly use an activation system you like better for your games and still take advantage of all the OTHER streamlined and elegant mechanics from Combat Patrol(TM).

I thank you for at least giving the rules a try.

Buck

We did like the card combat mechanics, but IMO the activation system leaves open too much chance for the vagaries of luck to affect each scenario's outcome.

Tactically, I can't imagine how an element on point duty performing reconnaissance for example, can then expect to be supported, if a platoon leader isn't provided the basic ability to issue orders sequentially, and to squads in close proximity to these lead troops that they're detailed to support. Certainly there's friction on the battlefield, but these factors work against a combat leaders plan of action, not as a substitute for it.

I bet a simple IGOUGO turn process would more than compensate in speed of play (and playability), for the utility gained by potentially having multiple players activate under the same card pull # (and w/o the interrupt and leader swapping options [to manage/consider].

Gamers might have a favored turn sequence preference – today I basically care to host and play games that maximizes interactivity, and let the players make their best command decisions [be they right or wrong], instead of further filtering the process.

I fully understand that you don't like randomized activation systems. You're not alone. Many popular sets of rules use randomized activation. We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I encourage you to apply your favorite activation system to Combat Patrol(TM) and let us know how it works. There is a Yahoo Group for Combat Patrol(TM) where people discuss modifications and enhancements. I think the subscribers to that list would be happy and excited to hear about how a different activation systems works with the rules.

Buck

FlyXWire:

One other thought before changing the subject: you might want to play the game a few more times before forming a fixed opinion. One can draw an infinite number of lines through a single point. :) My general rule of thumb is to not offer a public opinion on someone's rules until I have played it at least three times. Game design is sort of like sculpting. It is about how all the parts fit together, and whether they do so well. Often the nuances of a design are not obvious the first time out of the box.

I have played a number of randomized activation systems over the years -- beginning with TSAF in the 1970s. I have also played many IGO-UGO systems, simultaneous systems, and variations on those themes. I think I addressed most of the shortcomings of randomized systems in Combat Patrol(TM). It took several years to develop Combat Patrol(TM), and I tried a number of activation systems along the way. I found none *I* liked better, but in some ways, this is merely a matter of personal taste. (You can make the same case about bag-of-dice systems, dice progression systems, d6 systems, d10 systems, systems with different types of dice, saving rolls, etc.)

Anyway, I look forward to hearing how you make out bolting a different activation system onto the rules. Good luck! Really. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I would love to year how you make out.

Buck

Well, I'll use this opportunity to reply by raising another question we encountered: a unit's movement distance is specified on a drawn activation card and relates to the Guts rating (and this is a variable amount of distance allowed depending on each card pulled). This creates an issue when a group of units is travelling in a road column, one behind each other, where the rate of movement differs from each unit at the time they are activated to move. We had two questions that this raised for our playtest, the first was to consider how an off-board column of troops could conceivably enter a game area together, considering that different rates of movement along their travelled path would have separated the column well before it approached the tactical gaming area? Taking the thought further, and as experienced in our game testing, the subsequent on-board travel of such a group of units in road column doesn't seem capable of maintaining a common marching pace, because of the different rates of movement each unit can draw by its card pull. Additionally, a compounding question arises from the largely random order of activation that occurs between individual, friendly units, where in the rear of such a column units may be required to activate before elements in the lead have progressed allowing space for any rearward activating units to actually traverse forward.

Perhaps there's a rules mechanism we missed (or should be), that allows a road column of units to coordinate some common cadence of travel, and for a player to consistently be able to activate its progress forward starting from the formation's front?

I eventually will be doing some WW2 Burma scenarios as an example, with units using limited trail networks for traversing through large areas of jungle terrain – having individual movement rates, and random activation of units marching in file forwards seems like a overly-tedious exercise. Again, is this something we encountered incorrectly, or perhaps something that needs consideration?

FlyXWire:

You are correct that this is not explicitly covered, and it is an issue with all randomized activation schemes. I am currently working on a FAQ and a (free) optional rules supplement to cover some things not covered in the basic book, but that is still a few weeks away. (By the way, the Yahoo Group is a great place to get these kinds of questions answered.)

In the case of a unit moving in column, what we do is let the player hold the activation dice as a group. When activation cards are drawn, we then place the die corresponding to the first card drawn on the first unit in the column, the die corresponding to the next card drawn on the second unit, and so on. In this way, the lead unit in the column always moves first, the second unit second, etc. This avoids the issue of the third unit activating before the first, causing the situations you describe. Once a unit leaves the road (or column), it reverts to the normal activation mechanism.

If desired, you could let the movement draw for the first unit in the column set the speed for all subsequent units. We don't do this. Anyone who has moved a column of troops is familiar with the "accordion effect," which is adequately represented by each unit determining its own speed.

Buck

Buck, it's excellent that you're working on a FAQ and optional rules supplement. So often players feel inhibited to home-rule their own changes (not myself), but many gamers think a ruleset should be inviolate. Now including a scheme for having advance rules, and add-on/optional mechanics included along with the basic system can often allow for potential and "proper" modification w/o the downside of having to explain that some rule changes are "non-standard".

FlyXWire:

The FAQ was posted this morning at: PDF link

If you have additional questions, feel free to contact me at surdu@acm.org.

Buck

Combat Patrol Unit Record Cards.

These are aplayer aid for Combat Patrol, WW2 Skirmish rules, each pack contains 15 70mm x 120mm cards printed on high quality matt-board.
Packs contain a mix of pre-filled in squad and vehicle cards, so that you can start playing straight away, and blank unit cards that you can use for any other vehicles or squads that you want to field.
A handy platoon organisation chart is also included in each pack.
The cards have been designed to fit into Ultra-pro 70mm x 120mm deck sleeves so that you can write on / wipe off name of squad leaders.
First two packs to be released are US Armoured Infantry Platoon and German Panzer Grenadier Platoon. Many more are planned / in development.
Cards are available from Sally 4th and On Military Matters in USA.
wargamesbuildings.co.uk/Combat-Patrol

Both random activation and IGO-YGO have inherent problems. If nothing else they lead to a lot of standing around in a multi-player game (while you wait for your card or your turn).

Oddly enough John Hill and Frank Chadwick solved these problems years ago with the Order Chit system and interlocking sequence of play. Copied by GW (of all people) in their brillant original Space Marine game. (And also shamelessly copied by me for Combat Command). Order chits and very simple (though clever) sequence of play allow both pre-planning and keep everyone busy.

TomT

The activation rules for Combat Patrol are one way to simulate how an individual or unit reacts under fire or in a combat environment.
Buck outlines the reasons he went with the Double random activation system he developed. The contrary views are well expressed by others in the above comments.
Why the system works for me is that it is simple and seems to work well on the table. It simulates my own experiences of the feel of combat.
In 4 hours or less I can recreate up to company sized engagements. It provides for me a reasonable combat resolution regards; movement, morale, combat and how units activate. I have not seen a lot of down time with those playing.
As a game this system is excellent, as a simulation, it simulates , for me, the chaos of battle well.
I enjoy this rule set and look forward to more supplements and support from its author.

Brian.