"Basing 6mm figures" Topic
61 Posts
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Edwulf | 11 Feb 2016 12:44 a.m. PST |
While the 60x30mm base may be the best size for showing off basing skills I don't see how it can be the best for visual impact and practicality when to mind having troops frozen in line… or column… can spoil the visual impact and feel of the game. My 6mm troops are undamadged apart from those bayonets and horse legs that didn't survive the postal journey. |
Glenn Pearce | 11 Feb 2016 9:00 a.m. PST |
Hello Edwulf! Excellent point. Visual impact is without question very much a personal thing. What impresses some people is often missed by others. You also have to consider experience or conditioning. I see that you do acknowledge that the 60x30 is the best for showing off basing skills. I would say that is probably a major part of the visual impact. The second part of your question is having troops frozen in line or column. I think that's probably a result of your own personal conditioning ("when to mind"). Your figures on your smaller bases are also frozen in line or column are they not? So the only real difference is just the size of the base. Your last part "feel of the game" is outside of visual impact and practicality, but still a valid concern regardless. I can only say that from my own personal experience and the feedback from the members of my club and my colleagues around the world that the "feeling" part is actually better with the bigger bases. I think a lot of it has to do with the "visual impact" of the bigger bases. The table is covered with bases that look like mini dioramas so your delighted to play in such a wonderful looking environment. People often say I love the look of those bases. No one ever said that when we used small bases. The other thing is Polemos pushes you more towards the problems of the senior commanders and away from the concerns of the junior commanders. No one has to waste time on formation changes and the rock, paper, scissors kind of environment that it creates. So players get a better sense of what it's like to command forces rather than attend to minute detail. Collectively it seems to be a much better "feeling" for most people. As for damages a lot depends on which figures your using and how their mounted, but the biggest problem can simply be one player. Our change over to Baccus and bigger bases certainly reduced my damage problem. Twenty years ago the 60x30 and other single/big bases were rarely seen anywhere. Today these bases are common place and used by lots of players around the world. Baccus has basically built their business on quality figures and the family of 60x30 bases. They even have their own convention! At the turn of the century we had our own small base rules and a collection of H&R and Irregular figures. We felt very smug in our perfect world, but because we always tried to be at the forefront of 6mm I agreed to undergo a study to see if anything else was out there that was possibly better. After which Baccus floated to the top in figure design, basing and rules. This was a complete shock to us that we had not found these revelations before. We have now been experiencing the total Baccus formula for over 10 years now. Our games are now faster, better looking, have a much better "feeling" and most importantly are also much more enjoyable. Best regards, Glenn |
MajorB | 11 Feb 2016 10:21 a.m. PST |
The other thing is Polemos pushes you more towards the problems of the senior commanders and away from the concerns of the junior commanders. That's got nothing to do with the size of the base. It's got everyting to do with the level of representation in the game. As for damages a lot depends on which figures your using and how their mounted, but the biggest problem can simply be one player. Our change over to Baccus and bigger bases certainly reduced my damage problem. Interesting that others have reported here that they have not had this problem. Today these bases are common place and used by lots of players around the world. I have yet to see any real evidence of this. |
Charlie 12 | 11 Feb 2016 5:06 p.m. PST |
As for damages a lot depends on which figures your using and how their mounted, but the biggest problem can simply be one player. Our change over to Baccus and bigger bases certainly reduced my damage problem. Well, in the 20+ years of handling some 8000 "little" stands (approx 70K of figures; but we've never really counted them), my group has never had a problem with broken stands or figures. And with 8000 stands and 70K of figures, it could be argued that WE are the standard (for whatever useless good that would do…). Twenty years ago the 60x30 and other single/big bases were rarely seen anywhere. Today these bases are common place and used by lots of players around the world. Baccus has basically built their business on quality figures and the family of 60x30 bases. They even have their own convention! Well, if they're so common, why haven't I've seen them in the 30 years of convention going that me and my group has done throughout the US and Europe? I've NEVER seen your particular large stand (for 6mm or any other scale). EVER. And I've NEVER seen a game of Polemus. EVER. I've seen lots of small stands used in AoE, FnF, RFnF, JR, Empire, etc. And I've seen large stands used in VnB games (great rules, BTW), but that was with small stands in sabots! If your vaulted large stands are so common, where are they hiding? The second part of your question is having troops frozen in line or column. I think that's probably a result of your own personal conditioning ("when to mind"). Your figures on your smaller bases are also frozen in line or column are they not? So the only real difference is just the size of the base. Really? Hogwash. Tell me, Glenn. What's the visual difference between 1 of your large stands and 3 of my small stands lined up together? NONE. And as for the diorama potential: One member of my group does as good, if not better (in fact, much better) job detailing his small stands as the examples on Peter's site. So that reason is a crock. The other thing is Polemos pushes you more towards the problems of the senior commanders and away from the concerns of the junior commanders. No one has to waste time on formation changes and the rock, paper, scissors kind of environment that it creates. Well, if you're playing a regimental level game, then the rock-paper-scissors dilemma is kinda crucial. And if you are playing a regimental game that doesn't include it, then you're playing a badly designed regimental game, aren't you? Our games are now faster, better looking, have a much better "feeling" and most importantly are also much more enjoyable. So are ours. And that's with those dreaded "little" bases… And finally, this…. Proposing that one stand is the pinnacle over all others (for 6mm or any other scale) is the height of absurdity. Whatever stand you use is based on whatever rules you prefer and personal choice. Nothing else. No one base is better than another. And to propose such is ridiculous in the extreme…. |
Edwulf | 11 Feb 2016 10:25 p.m. PST |
While the individual stands are frozen in tiny lines the 6 stands combined can look very dapper in a march column on a road, in line, in column or square. For me this is where much of the feel of a Naps game comes from. |
Charlie 12 | 11 Feb 2016 10:53 p.m. PST |
For me this is where much of the feel of a Naps game comes from. Very true. An ACW example: At Trevilian Station, Custer's cavalry was strung out in a long winding road column flanked by woods. Easy to replicate with my "inferior" 20x20 stands. Now just how do I do that with 60x30 stands? Answer: You don't. And that is a key element of the battle. |
Glenn Pearce | 12 Feb 2016 7:03 a.m. PST |
Hello Charlie 12! "Well, if they're so common, why haven't I've seen them in the 30 years of convention going that me and my group has done throughout the US and Europe? I've NEVER seen your particular large stand (for 6mm or any other scale). EVER. And I've NEVER seen a game of Polemus. EVER. I've seen lots of small stands used in AoE, FnF, RFnF, JR, Empire, etc. And I've seen large stands used in VnB games (great rules, BTW), but that was with small stands in sabots! If your vaulted large stands are so common, where are they hiding?" Well I've been going to conventions for close to 40 years and I've NEVER EVER seen another 6mm game (excluding micro) on any bases. EVER. So obviously I've NEVER EVER seen a 6mm 20mm x 20mm base game. EVER. My list of popular games that I've NEVER EVER seen is so long I can't even list them all. So I guess there all hiding in the same place. On the web I've seen all kinds of base sizes and games played by people all over the world. So I don't deny that these exist and probably in sizeable numbers. For me to do otherwise I would be in denial. So I acknowledge a lot that I've never personally seen. "The second part of your question is having troops frozen in line or column. I think that's probably a result of your own personal conditioning ("when to mind"). Your figures on your smaller bases are also frozen in line or column are they not? So the only real difference is just the size of the base. Really? Hogwash. Tell me, Glenn. What's the visual difference between 1 of your large stands and 3 of my small stands lined up together? NONE. And as for the diorama potential: One member of my group does as good, if not better (in fact, much better) job detailing his small stands as the examples on Peter's site. So that reason is a crock." My comments say they are the same except for the size. If you really feel that "diorama potential" increases with reduced size then there is nothing that I can say that will change that. Although I would argue that perhaps physics says otherwise. "Well, if you're playing a regimental level game, then the rock-paper-scissors dilemma is kinda crucial." Why do you need a dilemma to play a regimental game? "And if you are playing a regimental game that doesn't include it, then you're playing a badly designed regimental game, aren't you?" Absolutely not. Where does it say you need to have a dilemma to have a well designed regimental game? Just because a game design does not meet your expectations does not mean it is badly designed. "Proposing that one stand is the pinnacle over all others (for 6mm or any other scale) is the height of absurdity. Whatever stand you use is based on whatever rules you prefer and personal choice. Nothing else. No one base is better than another. And to propose such is ridiculous in the extreme…." There is no question that basing is a personal choice. However, as in most things in life some things do some things better than others. To deny that seems to be ridiculous to the extreme. To base your figures on a set of rules that you prefer is certainly a folly, as most of us know that can lead to the dreaded rebasing problems. I assume that when you chose 20x20 it was because you thought it was "better" than 10x10 or 30x30 or whatever, did you not? In fact it seems that you still do! "An ACW example: At Trevilian Station, Custer's cavalry was strung out in a long winding road column flanked by woods. Easy to replicate with my "inferior" 20x20 stands. Now just how do I do that with 60x30 stands? Answer: You don't. And that is a key element of the battle." Really, this is your best reason for using 20x20 stands. An obscure battle with "Custer's cavalry"! We are on the 6mm Napoleonic Board. There a two possibilities using 60x30, the first is you simply turn the base so the 30mm side becomes the front. The second is to calculate the exact distance the column would take and use a marker to show where it ends. Pretty simple stuff and probably more accurate than your 20x20 bases as generally they are much shorter than an actual road column would be. Charlie, the bottom line here is if your happy with your 20x20 bases then it can't get any "better" for you, and I'm very happy for you. Best regards, Glenn |
Glenn Pearce | 12 Feb 2016 7:14 a.m. PST |
Hello Edwulf! "While the individual stands are frozen in tiny lines the 6 stands combined can look very dapper in a march column on a road, in line, in column or square. For me this is where much of the feel of a Naps game comes from." I understand that completely as that's exactly how I played and felt for many years. I was surprised to learn that the bigger bases and a different set of rules actually resulted in a better "feel" for me and the members of my group. Nobody has ever advocated we go back to using small bases because they had a better "feel". In fact nobody has ever advocated we go back to small bases for any reason. Best regards, Glenn |
MajorB | 12 Feb 2016 8:03 a.m. PST |
Just because a game design does not meet your expectations does not mean it is badly designed. Depends what your expectations are … There a two possibilities using 60x30, the first is you simply turn the base so the 30mm side becomes the front. And they look so cool moving sideways … |
xccamx | 12 Feb 2016 10:39 a.m. PST |
This 'discussion' has been ridiculous from the beginning. Everyone taking part has already decided that they like the way they already base, of course they do or they wouldn't be basing that way. None of you are going to change the others minds, and nor should you feel you need to. Personally I base on 60x30 because it was convenient and, perhaps most importantly, my local wargames society bases on 60x30. I can't say however that it is objectively a better way of basing in every way, any more than any single base size can be considered a gospel truth. Essentially base however you like, the only person who's opinion on your basing matters is your own and there is nothing to be gained trying to convince people you have never met that their experience enjoying the base size they have been using was wrong. |
MajorB | 12 Feb 2016 11:04 a.m. PST |
The voice of reason. Well said, xccamx!! |
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