| Weasel | 31 Jan 2016 11:56 a.m. PST |
Wiki indicates that only the Poles used the 76mm Sherman post-Normandy, while the British did use them in Italy. Is this basically correct or is there anything that needs to be added ? |
| jowady | 31 Jan 2016 12:19 p.m. PST |
During the war that's it. Monty didn't want the 76mm gun in his units. None were sent to the 14th Army either. |
| Weasel | 31 Jan 2016 12:29 p.m. PST |
Any particular reason why? Supply issues or something else? |
| Andy ONeill | 31 Jan 2016 12:46 p.m. PST |
The 17pdr was considered significantly better than the 76 for anti armour. Italian units were less likely to meet heavy armour so the 76 was sent there and the firefly to nwe. |
| bhall389 | 31 Jan 2016 1:05 p.m. PST |
1 CAB and 5 CAD in Italy did not have 76mm armed Shermans, just 75mm, 17pdr and 105mm. |
| shaun from s and s models | 31 Jan 2016 1:06 p.m. PST |
yes the 76 was used by the british in Italy, m4a1 76,
only and the poles in nwe |
| Generalstoner49 | 31 Jan 2016 1:06 p.m. PST |
1 Polish AD almost needs two different orders of battle pre-post Chambois/Mont Ormel battles. Prior to those battles they were equipped with the 75's. It was when they were rebuilt post Falaise that they were equipped with the 76's. |
| Weasel | 31 Jan 2016 3:00 p.m. PST |
Appreciate the info guys :) |
| Jemima Fawr | 31 Jan 2016 3:20 p.m. PST |
The Poles received their Sherman IIa (M4A1 76W) during the winter of 1944/45. By March 1945 their 75mm Shermans had been completely replaced with 76mm Shermans. They were meant to have handed in their Fireflies, but managed to keep hold of most of them. In Italy the British 1st & 6th and South African 6th Armoured Divisions were the first to receive 76mm Shermans, followed by most of the independent Armoured Brigades later. 105mm close support tanks (Sherman Ib) were also being issued to all Sherman squadrons at the same time, at a rate of two per squadron. When Fireflies arrived in Italy in Oct 1944, they went first to the Canadian 1st & 5th Armoured Brigades, followed by those armoured brigades that hadn't yet received 76mm tanks. Some brigades ended up with a total mixture of 75mm, 76mm, 17pdr and 105mm Shermans. Ironically, the Polish armoured brigade in Italy was one of the very few NOT to receive 76mm tanks! |
| Jemima Fawr | 31 Jan 2016 3:23 p.m. PST |
Note that the 21st Army Group strength returns for December 1944 show a three-way split in 1st Polish Armoured Division of 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr. However, this indicates the state of the division half-way through re-equipping – they never went into action in that state. By the time they renewed operations in the Spring, all 75mm tanks (save perhaps for some OP tanks) had gone. |
| Martin Rapier | 01 Feb 2016 12:10 a.m. PST |
For 1st and 6th AD, what was the scale of issue of 76mm Shermans? Similar to fireflies? |
| Jemima Fawr | 01 Feb 2016 5:51 a.m. PST |
They were issued piecemeal from July 1944 onwards, so there was a mix of 76mm and 75mm for a while through late 1944, but by the end of 1944 they were virtually all 76mm tanks. Note that 1st Armoured Division was disbanded late in 1944, though the 2nd Armoured Brigade remained in theatre as an independent brigade. IIRC, they didn't receive any Fireflies at all, though 6th South African Armoured Division got their hands on some. |
| Martin Rapier | 01 Feb 2016 6:36 a.m. PST |
Thanks. I was thinking of getting some British 76mm Shermans and just planning how many I need. |
| Jemima Fawr | 01 Feb 2016 7:10 a.m. PST |
Just looking at my notes from decades ago, when I had the 15th Army Group returns… 1st Armoured Division were first to receive them and in July/August 1944 had roughly enough for one 76mm Troop per Squadron or perhaps one 76mm tank per Troop. By the Autumn of 1944, all but a few tanks in 1st Armoured Division were 76mm-armed. The remaining tanks were 105mm CS tanks and a few 75mm tanks that were probably OP tanks in Bde/Regt HQs and Artillery Regiments. By the winter (when the 2nd Armoured Brigade became independent), the ratios actually dropped back a little as they received 75mm tanks as battlefield replacements (approx. 2:1 76mm to 75mm). In the case of 6th Armoured Division, they didn't get as many 76mm tanks as 1st Armoured Division. During the Autumn of 1944 they had enough for perhaps one 76mm Troop per Squadron or maybe one 76mm tank per Troop. By the end of 1944 and into 1945, the 6th Armoured Division's 'gun tanks' were roughly half-and-half 75mm/76mm, plus a handful of Fireflies (enough for perhaps 2 or 3 per Squadron). In the case of 6th South African Division, they received them initially at roughly the same rate as the British 6th Armoured Division, though by 1945 they had completely replaced their 75mm tanks. They don't appear to have had Fireflies 'on the books', though anecdotal evidence shows that they did receive some. The independent 7th Armoured Brigade by 1945 had a unique three-way split of 75mm, 76mm and Firefly. |
| Martin Rapier | 01 Feb 2016 8:32 a.m. PST |
That is very helpful, thank you. |
| Jemima Fawr | 01 Feb 2016 10:21 a.m. PST |
No worries, sorry I've lost the raw data and numbers. All I've got are the army lists I wrote based on those numbers. |
| Martin Rapier | 03 Feb 2016 7:46 a.m. PST |
No, that is fine. Just after an idea of ratios in general. |
| Jemima Fawr | 03 Feb 2016 8:26 a.m. PST |
Correction: 7th Armoured Brigade had a FOUR-way split – I forgot the two 105mm Sherman Ib in each SHQ. Individual Troops apparently had one each of 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr. Ammo replen must have been a nightmare… Always thought that would be a fun one to do… :) |
| Griefbringer | 03 Feb 2016 11:24 a.m. PST |
Correction: 7th Armoured Brigade had a FOUR-way split – I forgot the two 105mm Sherman Ib in each SHQ. Individual Troops apparently had one each of 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr. Ammo replen must have been a nightmare… Such a squadron would certainly make an interesting sight on a gaming table! |
| Jemima Fawr | 03 Feb 2016 12:30 p.m. PST |
|
looks at more open-topped German artillery vehicles.
