"Menzel - Hohrath - Winterfeldt " Topic

Sorry I couldn't think of any better headlinge.

About 15 years ago – I started to convert and sculpt some Prussian infantry in 1 / 72 scale as first attempt.

I had the delusion that armed with the works by Menzel, Kling and Bleckwenn – I was quite on the safte side to start my project.

Soon however second thoughts came up, when reading the the uniforms – shown by Menzel were based on 1780 / 1786 originals and not to those of the 7YW. Experts insisted however that this was irrelevant there the uniforms did not change.

But -I couldn't believe such a statement, it maybe that the facings and lace patterns did not change, or not that lot, but certainly the cut of cloth and also the style of the hat.

I found some contemporary pictures and could rectify some of my errors, like originally I sculpted the waistcoats much too short (like 1786 fashion, this I could change but for hats, colour of uniforms I was stuck – till the fantastic Horath came up – I wish he was there when I did the converting and sculpting – so here Regiments Bevern in 1 / 72 scale as I did it about 12 years ago – the mounted officers and 2 other infantry figures were sculpted by Frank Germershaus, the talented sculptor who did also the Black Hussar Prussian 7YW in 28 mm (post Hohrath)

The side arms of the NCOs according to scale – especially for grenadiers

Now by and large this was my influence

see the cut of cloth, the ultra short waistcoat, the hat – and also the colour of the musket stock (almost black as it became fashionable after the 7YW)

But – this is how I would modell them now

clearly a different hat – also slanted to be able to shoulder the musket withtout knocking it off the hat – look at the cut of coat, the longer waistcoat.

This in fact was taken on board when the BH 7YW Prussians were designed.

Also I would change the tunic colour – much lighter and intensify the pink colour to a more darker one

Very nice !

Phil

Damn that Hohrath. Expensive and hard to refute. :)

Your comparison of the musketeer figures here is easier to discern than the one that you have done for the Cuirassiers in your other thread. Now I see what you mean.

What do you make of all the coats being buttoned/joined at the top in the period illustrations? Looks like the top 3 buttons joined, open below.

And also the waistcoats unbuttoned so low?

That top 3 buttons style would last about 3 seconds on the battlefield anyway. :)

open waistcoat well confirmed by other contemporary pictures

Yes but that low?

on the quick

Convinced ;-)?

Getting there. :)

Some interesting comments about the above image here:
link

Around 1750 for the date (if correct).

"Bleckwenn, Hans: Unter dem Preußen-Adler. Das brandenburgisch-preußische Heer 1640-1807, München: Bertelsmann 1978, page 161.

It shows Infanterie-Regiment Erbprinz Ludwig von Hessen-Darmstadt (No. 12) around 1750 btw.: grenadier sergeant, grenadier, grenadier corporal, NCO of musketeers, musketeer (f.l.t.r.). Bleckwenn says this uniform was worn by the regiment until 1752 and then handed over to Inf. Reg. No. 5 (Magdeburg). The cut is the one worn during the 7YW. Note the spontoons and gloves worn by the NCOs, in addition to the cuff lace indicating rank."

I've also seen a lot of pictures (not contemporary) showing Prussian infantry (and those of other nationalities) in battle with their coats unbuttoned. Do you think there is a fair likelihood of this occurring, ie ease and comfort in battle vs parade correctness?

@Snowcat

Yes right you are – The tableau (showing all the different regiments) is from Petzinger – dated about 1770 – though it looks awfully close to 7YW style to me – and indeed also to be found in Unter dem Preußen Adler one can see a better photo – it merits deep reflexion and discussion, for example the different blues of the dragoon regiments.

And yes also the other photo from Regiment Erbprinz Ludwig – I got from the same source as well.

As to coats unbuttoned (unbottoned as unbottoned turnbacks?), for winter dress yes, as for Leuthen but then also the lapels bottoned over – for summer – no – unless of course contemporary or primary sources come up which proove otherwise ;-))

Otherwise – in case you mean not fixed by hooks at the top of the coat – no – much more comfortable to wear closed than open – due to the equipment one has to carry.

Sorry, I meant worn open at the front, unhooked. I've seen so many pictures of mid-18th century infantry (including NCOs and officers) wearing their coats open at the front it's not funny.

And here's one showing Prussian infantry, this time from 1734 (again with coats open):

The waistcoat is the longer style too, again mostly unbuttoned.
Illustrations from Bleckwenn/Gudenus – Reiter, Husaren und Grenadiere: Die uniformen der Kaiserlichen Armee am Rhein 1734.

@Snowcat

Yes, you proove me wrong, still after much reflection, I wouldn't do figures with open front for 7YW – You are right in the Gudenus Handschrift you see more than one open coat, but for 7YW? I doubt it.

I'm sure you've seen all the 'modern' Rochling & Knotel illustrations, showing coats often open.

But if you have Summerfield's books, eg 'Prussian Musketeers of the War of the Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War', it includes the plates from the Accurate (1759). In these, all infantry including staff have their coats open, and their waistcoats unbuttoned to between the chest and stomach (1/2-way between collar and waist).

Curiouser and curiouser. :)

Yes – but I avoid looking at modern artists interpretation – as long as possible – in case I cannot find any contemporary or primary source, I ignore, look for example at the rediculous water bottles, only research by Hans Bleckwenn, discovered it – at Forchtenstein, even Kling – an extraordinary researcher of the highest degree – had the opinion in 1908 that it did not exist any longer – but primary sources show them correctly while secondary fail abysmally

@Snowcat

In case, I like to draw your attention at the Becher manuscript – for full download on Gallica

Thanks, I'll take a look at the Becher manuscript. Do you have a direct link? Note the waistcoats are buttoned up this time. :) Is 1762 when it was drawn or just the period depicted?

What is your opinion of the Accurate 1759 illustrations I referred to? 'Accurate Vorstellung der samtlich Koeniglichen Preusischen Armee', Berlin (1759).

Also in Summerfield's book are the plates from the Etat Militaire du Roi de Prusse, 1 January 1770. These generally show all ranks with that top section of the coat hooked together again, but with waistcoats buttoned.

@Snowcat

Yes indeed – but you are certainly aware that all those documents need interpretation, all we can see are general trends, notice also the darker tunic colour.
See also the very densly spaced waistcoat buttons – also note the nice Kuhfuß of the musket, but the musket sling stopping at the trigger guard – insted under the butt.
Still Becher is within the trend – or in line with Hohrath, Petzinger, clealry different to Menzel and later artists.

I don't have the Summerfield book, maybe you can put up an illustration of Etat Militaire du Roi de Prusse ??

At some time the waist coats started to be buttoned up, as like in in 1792 confirmed by Thieme.

I would have to see if there are any text references in Kling again, but that will cost some time, at the moment we are on the picture book level, but we have to see text references as well, time consuming.

I'll scan some examples of both the Accurate 1759 plates and also the Etat Militaire 1770 ones tomorrow. Personally I'm more focused on the Accurate 1759 plates, because of the date and nationality of the work.

@Snowcat

Kling, page 45 about waistcoats

from the order book (Parolebuch) 1752 – 1756 of the regiment Erbprinz von Hessen – Darmstadt in Prenzlau (now part of Berlin) – Nr. 12 of the Stammliste)

23rd of September 1752 : Tomorrow the revues (Parade) will start, the waistcoats have to be buttoned up and the coats hooked (closed, doesn't say how much down) und woolen trousers, however with white gaiters

30th of April 1753 : The linnen trousers and white gaiters have to be worn from tomorrow onwards, the waistcoats to be worn open.

30th September 1755 : Tomorrow the black gaiters should be worn und the waistcoats buttoned up

so – maybe a seasonal related practise, depending on weather conditions.

as for Accurate plates -do you mean Schmalen? There might be variations of his series, I am not that impressed about some details and wouldn't rely too much on it – I also would stick to Hohenrath, Petzinger in case of contradicting observations

@Snowcat

Just looked at the Gallica download, up to now I was under the stupid impression that it was complete, but it shows "only" the Reichstruppen and Allied (French and Austrians) – but the above photos, are surely from Becher is well, which could mean – is there another volume??

Are there more in the Vinkhuizen collection about the Prussians??

And yes, you are right again, in the Reichsarmee etc. – quite a view with open coats – as for Prussians – my last ditch defence, at least those I know – do show partially closed ones, I checked Kling, couldn't find any text information of that.

and yes it does

link

so where is the original?

Excellent quotes there, von W.

"23rd of September 1752 : Tomorrow the revues (Parade) will start, the waistcoats have to be buttoned up and the coats hooked (closed, doesn't say how much down) und woolen trousers, however with white gaiters"

Bingo. This supports my thinking – that the hooking of coats a certain fashionable way was largely for parade. On the battlefield, comfort would have ruled – and wearing a tight-cut Prussian coat hooked together would *not* have been more comfortable than wearing it open with kit strapped over it (unless weather would have made wearing the coat closed a better idea). Same goes for officers. They're wearing their uniforms, they have whatever equipment they need. Job done. Details/idiosyncrasies beyond that are for parade, and could vary from regiment to regiment or from one year to the next – the vagaries of fashion.

The other quotes definitely show a seasonal variation in gaiters and buttoning of waistcoats. This is the 'truth' or glue that effectively binds otherwise seemingly contradictory variations in uniform plates from manuscript to manuscript (aside from artistic errors of course).

Well done. :)

Re the Accurate 1759 plates, I don't know who drew them. You'll know when you see what I post from them later today.

Cheers

Here are examples of 3 Prussian regiments from the Accurate 1759 and the Etat Militaire 1770 (from 'Prussian Musketeers of the War of the Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War – Uniforms, Organisation and Equipment' by Stephen Summerfield):

Summerfield's books also show the relevant lace, banners, etc for each regiment, along with its history.

Accurate – means acurate, it is part of the title of the work – usually Accurate Vorstellung der Uniformierung der preußischen Armee or such like –

as acurate presentation / depiction of the regiments / uniforms, etc. of the Prussian Army

Raspe published quite a few of verious armies and in various editions

I already listed the title of the work above. Here it is again:
'Accurate Vorstellung der samtlich Koeniglichen Preusischen Armee', Berlin (1759).

Cheers

Yes, the Accurate 1759 series (abbreviated that way in Summerfield's books) is indeed by Raspe/von Schmalen.