"Chain of Command" Topic

Chain of Command by Too Fat Lardies

I think it's skirmish platoon level game and it doesn't use points to build your forces apparently.

For anyone who has played the game, what can I field alongside the infantry at any one time?

I'm not looking for 12 tanks, 8 mortars, 6 anti tank guns, 6 halftracks etc (I can use Flames of War for that). I don't want quantity.

What I'd like is to be able to field 1 tank, 1 mortar, 1 anti tank gun, 1 half track, and one anti aircraft gun alongside the infantry at the same time.

So not so much multiples of the same thing, more a case of one of most things so as to give us options and variety when we feel like really getting into it.

Anyone know if this is possible with Chain of Command?

Thanks all

It sure is!

Check out the Two Fat Lardies Forum.

link

Depends on your roll for supports. Sometimes you get a lot, sometimes you don't.

Also check out the "Spanish Civil War"board here on TMP. You will find several AARs based on CoC.

In a typical scenario you would get up to 10 support points (detrmined by a dice roll). You would not be able to get 1 tank, 1 mortar, 1 anti tank gun, and 1 half track for 10 points. A tank would cost you ~6 points to start with.

Thanks all and thanks for the forum link

When I was on the website earlier I must have missed it

Have to say, early impressions are good

It is a very good system and you get a feeling that there is a narrative to your games.

If you want to get a feel, I have quite a few battle reports of WWI, Abyssinia Crisis, Spanish Civil War and WWII games I have played with Chain of Command here: link

Thanks scrivs

I have played games where we used OOBs instead of points, but still kept AFVs on low side. For example, we would have two Sherman's and anti-tank weapon against equal number of tanks/AT on German side, same infantry numbers, lots of terrain to break up board, and had very fun games. Dang snipers and MG42s – it wasn't the tanks because you could use terrain to mask them, it was the infantry that decided who won usually.

Sounds good Condotta

What does OOB mean?

OOB is order of battle. He uses historical organizations rather than points listings to arrange his forces.

You can just put whatever you want on the table.

The official system works like this:

Each platoon is assigned a "rating".

You get a certain number of support points, and the lower rated platoon get a bonus equal to how much lower they are.

So you might get 3 support points and I might get 8.

Each nation has a list of support choices to pick from, with ratings from 1 to 10.

So I could pick like 8 latrine diggers or a single Stalin tank or anything inbetween.

Typically, the system will give you 1-3 support elements alongside your platoon but you could scale it up, or just swap out between games.

There is a system to determine support points and choices to equalize the sides. But you can just say you're adding a tank to each side and call it even. (Just make sure each side has something that can knock it out otherwise…) And yes, fielding a single tank is possible as opposed to a platoon.

You could definitely roll up the support and just add ~10 more points for each side if you wanted. That would get you close to what you were requesting.

The problem with that is that Chain of Command is heavily geared toward command and control so with all those extra teams you'd quickly find yourself struggling to issue enough orders to make it fully effective.

Might be able to solve that by holding off some units until others are destroyed. So if you have 3 vehicles, bring on 2 and then use the last as reinforcements.

Last night I ordered the Flames of War 3rd ed rulebook and the Open Fire box set. For a skirmish game I can't decide upon Bolt Action or Chain of Command.

I thought Bolt Action's orders dice looked really cool until I saw Chain of Command's deployment phase, and how they utilise d6 during a game.

Bolt Action looks a fun game, and seems easier to play than Chain of Command, but Chain of Command seems to give that extra bit of crunch, which I enjoy.

@Sparky68

I have played both, both are fun games but if you are looking for a game which more closely reflects "real life" it has to be Chain of Command IMHO.

@steamingdave47

I'm of the same thinking Dave, and it also looks like a better set of rules too. That said, I can't help shake the feeling that Bolt Action might be more fun to play.

Why not both?

Hi Bob

Because I'm just starting out, I have to buy paint, figures, rule books, and terrain. I'm trying to keep the cost down but eventually I like to think I'll have both games at some point.

Sparky,
(note all info is from basic rule book, no scenario books and the like)
Yes you can do this with Chain of Command. How you pick forces works like this:
Say you and I are playing a game. I am German Greandiers, and you are British Infantry. we both get our TO&E platoon, so each of us have 3 infantry squads. in addition to this, I have my Senior Leader (platoon LT.) and you have your 2" mortar and platoon LT and SGT.
Both of these forces have a "rating" of 0. this basically means that they are "points equal" the Germans have better MG's and the British have a built in Mortar and better command and control.
Now we pick our mission. Lets say my Germans are attacking your British in a standard attack and defend mission. (keep it simple, its our first game!) so, I roll 2d6 (some missions are 1d6, and patrol is a bit different). I roll a 11. 11 and 12 are counted as 10. I would get to pick an a number of supports who's combined worth is 10, while you get half that total to support you, so 5. I could be a typical Nazi and let my obsession with gigantism get the best of me and blow all 10 on a Tiger. Instead, I think that I may want a little extra leadership, so I spend 2 to get a Platoon SGT (always worth it.) now I have 8 points left. there are some other tanks that I could buy, but I decide instead (against my character) to take a 75mm infantry gun. with 4 points left to spend, I could either get more firepower in the form of a MG42 MMG tripod mount, or an extra squad of infantry. I choose the latter, as I need bayonet strength to dig out those plucky British.
Meanwhile, you are choosing your 5 points of support. we don't have "army lists" and we don't tell each other what we are picking during this process. Knowing my predilection for being a tread head, and I just painted up a shiny Panzer, you are really debating blowing your 5 points on a 6 pounder, or 4 points on 2 piat teams. But you notice me cackling like a mad scientist and suspect something is amiss. "right then, I'll show this Jerry" you say, and spend 4 points on a Vickers MMG to stop my infantry assault. with 1 point remaining there are a plethora of kinda sorta useful things for you to buy. the debate is between some barbed wire, an adjutant (allowing both leaders on table) or entrenchments for one of your teams. you decide to dig in a bren team on the objective.
with this we are off!
Had you been British Airborne, I would have received an additional 8 support points, by virtue of you being so bad@$$, but If I was using Elite Panzergrenadiers to attack your Paras, I would only get 1 additional, because the forces are so much closer.
So no, you will not get 12 tanks on the table in a standard game. the cheapest tanks cost 5 points, and are Pz2's and Stuarts. "standard" tanks like Shermans and Pz4's are in the 6-7 range.

I hope this helps, but if there is too much info in here please delete.
~Joe

Also Sparky,
This may just be me, but I can't recommend Bolt Action to you. Chain of Command Is FAR more tactically interesting and nuanced.

It really depends on the type of game you want. CoC has forces selected like I described, you use fire teams and squads and can go on overwatch, has a very interesting turn sequence, is always a god game, and usually can swing back and forth a few times and is tense until the end.

Bolt Action is more of your standard "40k ww2" game. you build armies based on a points list (e.g. 1 german soldier is 10 points, an assault rifle is 7 points, you can have 3 per squad, ect.) Tank combat is… well I don't like it. I can bounce rounds of the front of a t-34 76 rather regularly with my king tiger. at point blank range. also, you CANNOT break down your squads into fire teams. All in all, I really don't like the game, its really sameish and not very tactually interesting, this is all my opinion of course.

One last thing, I promise!

If you are planning on playing flames of war, please be informed that you will need to buy quite a lot of stuff and it is very much a tournament game, like bolt action. I recommend using I Aint Been Shot Mum instead (also by the lardies)

Another good game is Crossfire. its an older set, but is back in print. its rather popular and very much different to other games.

both for Chain of Command and Crossfire you should have enough stuff in that starter box to play straight away. IABSM less so but you could.

Thank you very much for your in depth replies Dobber. Have to say I am more convinced than ever that CofC is the game I should get.

One question, and it seems an odd one, but, is playing CofC fun?

Couple of reasons why I ask

(1) The game seems so steeped in historical accuracy, it feels like it may detract from the fun. I'm not saying I want to hand glide into Colditz or be running at machine gun nests all day, but I also don't want to feel constraint by history to the degree I can't try different over the top actions now and again

(2) I watched the Bolt Action demo game and the CofC demo game on Youtube, and they were like chalk and cheese. The Bolt Action game was vibrant and interesting to watch, but the CofC offering was static, literally, because they only used stills instead of motion video. I think this is a shame because CofC sounds a great game.

So, is CofC a fun game that will appeal to new wargamers who sometimes may just want to shoot stuff up? I have nothing against historical accuracy, in fact I've just bought an illustrated guide to WW2 because I like it. But end of the day I want to play a game and not recreate history down to the exact detail.

I'll try to be as subjective as I can in this. My knee jerk response is "boy howdy is it fun". Chain of command is what re kindled my interest in WW2.

some of this may come off as condescending. its not really meant that way. I think. I can be kind of crass at times.

Horses for Courses is the thing here. CoC is a superb game. However, there are certain types of player it won't appeal to. The first is the type who like to min max their army list. this is ww2, not world war hammer 2. the second is the type of gamer who does not like to have to think or use tactics in a game. Chain of command is NOT a game in which it is wise to run across an open field against an entrenched machine gun on overwatch. No joke, there are players out there who think that their rifle armed infantry should have a fair, sporting chance of taking out a MMg in a bunker by running at it across open ground. The third type of gamer who won't enjoy it is the ones who want to control all of their troops all the time, without fail.

In response to your questions:
(1) Always remember, history is stranger than fiction. In ww2 you had Jack Churchill, whom has the only confirmed longbow kill in ww2. he carried an Longbow and a Basket Hilted broadsword to battle, remarking that any officer without his sword is "improperly dressed". this guy is real. no joke. look him up.
IMHO, Chain of Command will restrict you less than Bolt Action will. As I mentioned before, there are no "army lists". if you get the free downloads, you can do clashes between armor platoons and multiple platoon bash ups. Depending on how far you want to go down the rabbit hole, you can get some older gaming material from them, you can graft the "blinds" system on to CoC, where you can have every piece of terrain on the table possibly concealing the enemy, and moving markers that you try to spot "those jerry's" only to ring out it was a flock of sheep… and they are actually behind you. sorry old bean.
Ok, I am ranting, let me try this again
Simply boiled down, you are not counting bullets or bombs in CoC or BA. There are Way more Tactical options in CoC though. allow me to run you through a sample turn of both. We will use the forces from my previous example

this will take a minute to type, hang on…

+1 to pretty much everything Dobber says, but I will add look into the campaign system for Chain of Command. It adds a lot of fun details into the game which make it even more fun to play.

I've got Chain of Command (Big Bundle), Axis and Allies JOPs, and At the Sharp End, all in my basket ready to go

Ok apologies, I was filming you a turn of each game, but my camera died. stay tuned. give me an hour or two.

Yes, CoC will appeal to new gamers. you may have some difficulty converting tournament types (as I have) but you can get a whole lot of shooting done in CoC. LMG's in COC fire 6 or 8 dice, BA is 3 or 4. more Dakka!

Edit:
also, there is 1 to hit modifier in COC, over or under 18, based on what you are shooting at. (vets, regs, green)
about 6 modifiers in BA, based on what you are shooting with.
Range is the table in COC, 30" for rifles in BA, and -1 if over 15. seems fine. for 6mm.

Thanks Dobber

Much appreciated

Anytime.

Ok, nothing really worked out here. Please ignore my family in the background, and I also made a mistake (can't count)

YouTube link

I'm pretty humbled that you filmed that to show me how the game works. Thank you very much. The camera shake isn't really noticeable and as tutorial goes it was very helpful.

I have to say the game looks great.

Machine gun fire is deadly!

Sure is! I tend to wax lyrical on this, but squad level LMG's are the reason for, and cornerstone of, all modern infantry tactics.
I am in the process of uploading the bolt action one right now. there is less to explain and it is a might bit quicker. didn't go how I expected. My poor Tommies didn't make it out of the cornfield…

Nevermind, I accidentally deleted it. but the tutorial on the beasts of war website goes a decent way to explaining it. the biggest difference is that the rifle and bren teams can't operate seperatly like they did in CoC, there just isn't as much tactical depth to bolt action.

Agreed. Both games have their places in WW2 for me, but CofC is the better game all round

Thanks again for the tutorial. The plan now is to order the game first thing tomorrow morning

Here is some stuff about vehicles
YouTube link

Sparky, if you haven't played Chain of Command yet, I will say this: It is the best miniatures game I have played, period. And that goes back for 30 years of gaming. Johnny Reb, I, II, III – all good to great. Tactica, I have six armies for it. Might of Arms, WWI air games, Civil War ship games, Red Sun Blue Sky, TAIKO!, Command Decision, Victoria's Battles, Fire and Fury, love em all. But CoC is the most tense, fun, frustrating game of all. Put lots of terrain on the table, and hide behind it, use it, have fun. Honestly, I was lackadaisical about WWII games until I played this game. When you are advancing on the German position, driving the Hun back off the table, and then a long Panzerschrek shot blows up your tank, and the flying debris kills the leader of the squad that was marching behind that tank, and you suddenly are on the defensive because your command dice are cut dramatically, that is a great game.

Chain of Command is far better than Bolt Action.

I'll toss in that while I prefer CoC (and I kinda prefer the older TW&T to both), Bolt Action is played in a lot of clubs, so it's a good game to be familiar with, if you intend to play in clubs or stores.

TW&T is also a great game, and can do a few things that CoC can't, through virtue of the blinds mechanism. I find that I prefer the "more polished" if you will firing mechanics in CoC to those in TW&T though. If I ever need to play a more sneaky type game, or a recon patrol, TW&T is the game. The supplements for africa and lebanon are great too.

Thanks for the tutorial Dobber and thanks all for the advice

I just ordered CofC and look forward to playing it.

Can you play early, mid and late war games?

Yes to all, late war "lists" are in the rules, others are available as free downloads from the TFL blog.

Thanks Captain

Late war is in the book, early war, africa, and the spanish civil war are available as a free download from the lard island blog, as well as the big games and armored platoons supplement.

edit: sorry was a bit late to that one

No problem

Thanks Dobber

My forces are used for both Bolt Action and Chain of Command. They are 99% compatible. The 1% is only where I don't have a figure where I might need another one.

A platoon of Allies and a Platoon of Germans will work perfectly for either game.

You mentioned on a different thread you ordered Open Fire. Does that mean you plan on using the 15mm figures for Bolt Action or Chain of Command?

The Open Fire figures will be used with Flames of War. Unless I can get away with not basing them permanently on their bases. If I can, I'd like to use them for Chain of Command as well.

You can play CoC with Flames of War based figs too. Not as cool as individually based, but they move and shoot as fireteams so it doesn't change the game at all.

Thanks for the tip cheesesailor77

another way to go about it is put the 15mm on washers with FOW sized magnetic bases. one of my friends in my group does this so he can play both. it works rather well and is an easy way of telling which is the rifle team and mg team.

the only instance where you may come into an issue is that in CoC you need bigger crew teams for your weapons, like tripod MMG's that require 5 men each.